Amir Ahmed [AA]: My name is Amir Ahmed and I come from Pakistan, I came to this country on 1st of September 1962 as a student. My parents they sent me to study in [inaudible 00:00:16] studies, postgraduate studies, but I graduated my – I had my first degree in Pakistan, so I came here for some postgraduate studies to study medicine. Because it was my long, long wish to be a doctor, and I could not study medicine in my country because I didn’t have very good grades, to enter into a medical school over there, so I thought there are a lot of medical schools in England, I might be lucky to get a place over there. And I always wanted to come to England, so that’s why I came here, and when I came here I mean I was so happy, I was very happy, I reached London Airport, London Heathrow Airport, the sun was shining, it was afternoon, it was very nice, and I was overjoyed. And that’s it, that’s how I started to come here.

Soni Kaur [SK]: And how – did you find work straightaway, or was it a difficult process, how did it –

AA: No, no, no, no, I was studying in Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, and during my Christmas holidays I got a postman’s job, student job, as a postman, as a postman, during Christmas holidays, that was my first job. And then my second job was to work as an invoice clerk in London, then I came down to London, and I used to take orders from rich people around in Kensington area, to – for to buy groceries, and I worked there for some time. And then I left that because that was – I didn’t like that very much. Then I was lucky to have a job as assistant to a pharmacist, in a company called Timothy Whites, I worked there for some time. Again I was not very happy, because that was wasting time, and then I wanted to get into a medical school, the universities, UCCA, universities, that’s a department for arranging undergraduate studies. They said there is no way I will be able to apply, no, no, no, that year it was too late to apply. Because normally applications, they receive applications at least a year before, so I had to wait, so I applied next year. And then they said there is no way you will be given a place in a medical school because for people, students from India, from Pakistan and from Ceylon, it was Ceylon in those days, now it’s Sri Lanka. We do not accept any students from these three countries, because they have got their own medical schools in a much better way, they can by – they are come here for postgraduate, they could come here for postgraduate studies and not for undergraduate studies. So that was the second year I wasted. The third year I got a place, I thought well now I have no choice, what should I do now, then I was accepted Chelsea College of Science and Technology to do my postgraduate diploma course in what was called – oh I can’t remember now, it's related to – oh I can’t remember that … food science, something like that, I can’t exactly remember, it’s a long time ago. Then because I’m a tennis player, and I slipped in my tennis court and I hurt my back, and that put me off, I was admitted in Nelson Hospital in Wimbledon about eighteen days, and after that I was not allowed to carry lot of weight, because I had slipped disc you see. And so I had to abandon my studies, I went back.

SK: Back to Pakistan?

AA: Back to Pakistan, over there the weather was very nice, I had full rest, I don’t – didn’t have to work you see, food was ready, I got pocket money, I got everything, you know, so where the good weather cured my problem with my slipped disc and I was all right.

SK: How long did you stay in Pakistan for until you came –

AA: Ten months, I stayed nearly ten months and I came back, then I got a job with John Murray which are publishers, they publish a lot of very nice books. I worked there for some time, but I was not very happy. Because that was just again an odd job, not my intention, not my wish. So luckily I was sitting in a library and I was reading some journals, papers, and I read a journal published by United Nations organisation, you see, and in those days it - and that was 1965 now. In those days they said – they were discussing about the prospects of education in future, they said the only three professions will have a good future. One is the physics, because in those days Russia and America they were sending sputniks in the vacuum, in the – they were trying to go, so that was related to physics. And the second thing was – second was, I can’t remember what the second one. The third was food science, so that appealed to me very much, because I graduated in biology, and my – I come from a family who are dealing with foods, so I thought that might be a good idea, why not to go for food science. So there was an BSc honours course at Borough Polytechnic, which is now University of South Bank, now, so I applied and they invited me for interview. And luckily I passed my interview and they accepted me, not only that, I was given grant as well, so I was very, very lucky.

SK: And where was that in England, what city was that?

AA: In London.

SK: In London?

AA: In London, Borough Polytechnic, Borough is polytechnic is now University of South Bank of England, South Bank, London, or something like that. I studied there for two years, and then I had a student job with the Lyons, Lyons Groceries Limited. It was an odd job and I spoke to my supervisor, I’ve got a student job, I’m a student, and it’s a temporary job, why don’t you put me somewhere where I can learn something. And then he said he would speak, he will speak to the personnel officer, in those days there was no HR department, human resource department, there used to be personnel office, personnel department, and I still remember that lady, little lady, Mrs Mike, Mrs Pik, P-i-k, Pik, who interviewed me, and then took me to the laboratory manager, or quality assurance manager for a further interview, and he selected me. And so that was a very, very interesting job, then I thought when I’ve got a job, because in those days it was very, very difficult to get a job, the proper job, I wanted to work or study medicine, food science, and work in food industry, I’m now in the food industry, so what’s the point in doing further studies. So I stopped that further study and continued my work there, I ask them that I want to continue work. So following year I requested the manager to give me a day off so that I could do some further studies, so I did my further study in analytical chemistry. I did SRSC [?] in those days it was Associate Royal Society of Chemistry, which I passed in a year. And on that ground, on the following year I was accepted for an MSc course on the part time basis, I said I want another day off, but they gave me another day off and took me two years to do another MSc in analytical chemistry. And then I asked them for a promotion, they said, “We cannot break the pattern of our management, as long as your superior is there,” who is not as much qualified as I was, “we cannot push him down and put you up there, above him, we can’t do that.” And also the money was – although they were giving me a day off and the working conditions were very nice, but they didn’t give me any rise. So I left the job, and I got another job with Schweppes as a drinks analyst. I worked there and did some quality control, quality assurance, research work, very, very nice, well paid job. And in those very days I think it was ’75 or ’76 my father died, so I had to go back to Pakistan. And I needed at least three months to go there, but my Schweppes company management they were not happy, they didn’t want to give me three months, so I had to retire, I had to give resign. So after – that and that was ’77, I came back in ’80, I got married there in ’77, and I came back in ’80.

[00:11:02]

SK: Did you come with your family, your wife?

AA: No, no, my wife was educationist, she was working as – at that time in ’77 she was working as a senior lecturer, in a college.

SK: In Pakistan?

AA: In Pakistan, and then in ’79, and in November ’79 we had our first son, you see. And then – and I came back in ’80, and in ’80 we had a second son, so I had come here because I wanted to do something, although I was took over my father’s business there, but I was not very happy and because my younger brothers were there, they were already doing there. But because I was the eldest, they put me on their top, I said, “You carry on, let me go back to England.” And my wife didn’t want to leave the job, she had a very good job there. So she – and I also wanted that my children should get their basic education in Pakistan, otherwise they might get spoiled here, you see. So my wife worked very, very hard, and I mean she was lecturing in the college, she was taking the children to school, bring them home, feed them, give them rest, and put them the books, and studies, studies, studies, study, they had no social life, but study. And while I came here I had a job, and at the same time I continued my studies.

SK: How old were you when all of this was going on, in your early 20s, late 20s?

AA: I was twenty-three when I came here, but then as the time goes, you know, it goes up. And then in ’85 I did another MSc in chemical analysis, from Woolwich Polytechnic, which is now Greenwich University. So that was very good, and I had – I worked my research topic was on vitamins, water soluble vitamins, there are two types of vitamins, fat soluble vitamins, and water soluble vitamins. Water soluble vitamins like vitamin C, B complex, all B vitamins, all the other water soluble, I worked on that. And on that basis I got a job with [inaudible 00:13:57], with Novartis, because they were the manufacturers of food supplements, for food vitamins. And they were – they gave me a very, very good job in Horsham, but I had a long way to travel, my health was going down, so I left that job. And in ’94, by the way I was living in London, in I left London in ’94 because I was accepted for MSc in food science, at Reading University. So I stayed two years in Reading, two years, I had a job for a year and a half, and then I had another problem with my landlord, he gave me to leave the room at a very short notice, I was very, very angry. And so I left Reading, and I came to Bristol 1998, and from then onwards I am here.

SK: So what did you spend most of your career as then, doing?

AA: As a food scientist, food science is my profession, but I was occupied – my occupation was for example in Schweppes I was an analytical chemist, dealing with quality control, with the lines, I was working as a researcher, R&D department you see. Because they were the first company to first – first British company to make teabags and I did a lot of work on teabags, from statistical point of view. Because Tetley was an American company, and they were the first company actually to introduce teabags, Tetley teabags. But after some time they sold the company to my company, Lyons, so it became Lyons Tetley Limited you see. And they transported – they shifted all the machinery, teabag making machinery into the Lyons company and I did a lot of work in collaboration with the production manager team, whole team. So and then we did a lot of work on new products and development, as well. We developed a product called Eight Till One, it’s a breakfast cereal, which means if you take one tablespoon of that cereal with hot milk and then you will not feel hungry until one o’clock, so the name of the product was Eight Till One.

SK: So you came to England in the ‘60s?

AA: Yes, in ’62.

SK: And how did you find it, what was the time like in England in the ‘60s, how did you find sort of being Asian, or how was it for the Pakistani community or the Indian community in England, how were they accepting you or –

AA: Oh yes, they accepted me with open arms, you see I mean to start with I’m a very sociable person, outgoing, and socialising with a lot of people, you see. Even in Pakistan when I was at the university, I used to meet a lot of Europeans, who came to Lahore on way to India. You see they wanted to go to Hong Kong, especially to Australia, and then also to New Zealand by land, and they had to go through Lahore, and then to India and so on, and they used to stay at YMCA. Young Men Christian’s Association, where they had two clubs, the basketball club, and the badminton club, and I was the badminton player. So that’s why I used to go there, and I used to meet a lot of Europeans there, and that’s how I developed my English conversational English. I just liked it.

SK: So you would say England treated you well then?

AA: Yes, yes, and I was very, very happy, no problem.

SK: And was it like that for the rest of –

AA: The only problem I had, the only problem that I had was the English accent, because when I came I was staying in East London, you see in East London the people in that area they were used – they were speaking Cockney, colloquial English, for me it was something very different. I used to sweat, what are they doing, what are they talking you see. And I couldn’t – I thought why have I come here in England, this is not English, I wanted to go back you see. But then somehow, then when I went to the university I could understand everybody, because they were educated people, they could – they were speaking right English, they could understand me, I could understand them, and I was very happy. And I was staying – at British Council arranged me as a paying guest with an English family, and I still remember that Mrs Acheson[?] she was so wonderful. So nice, and in those days we were very fond of Indian films, so sometimes we students wanted to go to – if we could see Indian films, and we got late at night you see. And she always left my food in the oven, she said, “Mr Ahmed, I’ve left your food at such and such place, and I’ve waited for you but you just warm it up and you help yourself,” and she was very, very nice, and I always remember her.

SK: And how long did you live there for?

AA: For three months, I went to another lady, Mrs Jane, her name was Jane, she was also very nice. But money was very limited, every penny was important for us, I was –

SK: So was that sort of the equivalent of renting, nowadays, so then days you were renting, okay?

[00:20:08]

AA: Yeah, and then we went to a – we rented, we used to pay, I think £3 or £4 per week, including bed and breakfast, and evening meals, plus accommodation. And we were getting £35, I was getting £35 per month, you see that means about approximately £9 per week, you see in those days £4 was for accommodation and digs, it’s called digs.

SK: Digs?

AA: Digs, where you pay paying guest.

SK: Ticks?

AA: Digs, yeah, and for £5 for travelling, and lunch, and all that. But because I didn’t have any bad habits like smoking and drinking, so I was trying to save my money, spend it as minimum as possible, but I needed entertainment as well, so in those days we used to go to Indian films because we liked Indian films, and we were not used to the British culture, the British habits, dancing, and mixing people, with girls and all that sort of thing. So this is how I – but I had no problem.

SK: And was that just for you, or did you see it with other that there was racism, did you see it with other people?

AA: All students, because we were students, we didn’t have much time for socialising with other people, we were living, yeah, limited money, you know, wanted to live within our resources, you know, but we didn’t have any problem, we didn’t want any job, you know, normally you have a problem when you are looking for a job, or socialising, or things, but we didn’t have that sort of thing. But we had very good, very good time, very, very good. And I’m very happy, and I’m – the only thing I will never forget in my life, is that my work which I did in my MSc’s, three MSc’s, has not been published. That is the only regret.

SK: And why do you think that is?

AA: Because of my loneliness, being alone, doing job, cooking, shopping, entertaining myself, because if you don’t entertain you are not recharging your battery, that means you are not having good days the following day, so I needed a little bit of entertainment as well, you see very, very important, good sleep with a little bit of entertainment, it’s very, very important ingredients for a better life. And also I was a little bit of lazy, as well, and even my professor said you have done a very good job, why don’t you write and come to us and we’ll help you, and we can do it published. But I don’t know, I just couldn’t make it, but now I regret, it’s my work is still there, at my home. But I’ll see how the things go, my son has made one publication, both sons are doctors now, one is working in Yorkshire, and the other one is working in Kent. The one in – working in Kent is an anaesthetist, he gives anaesthesia, and the one who is in Yorkshire he’s in medicine, he’s in medical profession, I mean he’s a physician, let’s put it that way. And that’s it. His wife is also doctor. And they have got a son, so I’m a grandfather now.

SK: Congratulations.

AA: Yes, so –

SK: So how about your family in Pakistan, were they supportive, because obviously you came here alone, what about your father and your mother, I mean what was it like coming to here?

AA: No, no, no, they didn’t want to come, no, no, they didn’t. They always wanted me to go back, because they wanted me to get married, you see, which I was not interested at that time. Because I was so much occupied mentally that I wanted to complete – complete what I wanted, and the things didn’t come to my mind. My younger brothers, two younger brothers, my two sisters, they got married, but I was the eldest, but I didn’t get married. So but in ’77 a time came, my father died in ’75 or ’76, and then when I went there then I told them, that now is the time I want to get married, because I had done something and I have achieved something, and also I was getting older, so I thought I should get married now. So they found this girl who was a lecturer, I said, “All right, go ahead,” so this is how it happened.

SK: Oh thank you so much.

AA: What do you think of my life?

SK: It’s – you’ve achieved so much, and you’ve been in so many different places, and an MSc in science.

AA: Yeah, yeah.

SK: I hated science at school.

AA: Yes.

SK: Just because I couldn’t – I was not good at it, that’s amazing.

AA: My first MSc was in analytical chemistry, my second was an MSc in chemical analysis, my third is in food science and technology.

SK: Amazing.

AA: Three, three of. And on my – in my first MSc I did my work on caffeine, which is in tea and coffee, that was my research project, and my MSc in chemical analysis, I worked on food supplements, vitamins, foods, vitamins, water soluble vitamins. And in my MSc food science I worked on bad breath, sometimes some people have a bad breath, and you can’t withstand. And why it happens, how it happens, how it can be cured, how to analyse it, how much is there, that was my project in MSc food science. So I got that paper as well, so these are my works.

SK: Amazing.

AA: Yeah.

SK: Commendable.

AA: Yeah, and now I’m heart patient, I have got two stents put in my arteries, I’m diabetic, and I’ve got increasing loss of memory, you see, so these are the three problems which have made me come here in day centre.

SK: You look so well though.

AA: This is it you see, I do, I do, I mean I try to look after myself properly, as much as possible, nobody believes my age.

SK: Yeah.

AA: What do you think, how old I am, just guess? Just guess?

SK: Seventy-two.

AA: More than that.

SK: You’re more than that?

AA: Say.

SK: Seventy-nine?

AA: No, no, that’s too far, I’m seventy-six.

SK: You don’t look it.

AA: Yeah, I’m seventy-six, I have three years more to go to seventy-nine.

SK: Sorry, it’s because you said say more so I was just like –

AA: Yeah, I thought you will –

SK: A couple of years, I went too far ahead, sorry.

AA: You will go one year by one, yeah.

SK: Yeah.

AA: So anyway doesn’t matter, it’s not important. So, you know, I mean yes I look after myself as much as I can, and the more – I don’t like – I ask my sons, they wanted to call me papa, I said I don’t want that, they call – they wanted to call me a buddy, I said no I don’t want that. And then I don’t know what else. And then my wife said, “What would you like to, what would you prefer?” simple dad, simple dad, and now they are in their – around 30s now, and they call me hello dad, I prefer dad, I feel happy, because that feels, makes me younger you see. But when I go home, some people call me – because my younger brothers and sister they are married, their children they call me [inaudible 00:28:41], and I don’t like it, that makes me feel old, you know? I don’t like that, even my son’s wife she started – she calls my uncle, I don’t mind. And but I prefer – I call her, some people here and there, they call it – although I know she’s my daughter-in-law, [inaudible 00:29:08] that’s true, but I call her by her own first name, Navia, I always say, “Navia, how are you?” I always say Navia. Because I want to treat her also as my friend, you see, because if I like to be uncle or dad, that makes me feel very old, you know? So that’s my thinking, and also I like to keep myself mentally active, this is very, very important, you see mentally and physically if you’re active, that makes you feel younger you see. I mean I got my car, I walk from home, which is about a couple of miles from here, I have my big lunch, then I walk again to city centre, you see which is another a mile and a half, couple of miles, something like that. And then I walk about there as well, do window shopping and things like that, then I take a bus and go home you see, because I like walking, because diabetic doctors and the heart patients, they have advised me that walking is very good for you. You see, so that’s why I keep walking.

SK: Well you know what they say, you’re as young as you feel, so, you know, if you feel young then that’s fine.

AA: That’s very important, that’s very important, yeah, I know how I am inside, but I try to be, you know, feel younger and all that sort of thing.

SK: Oh thank you so much, thank you so much.

AA: Then that’s it, all right.