Maherush Khan, [MK]: So can I just take your name again, please?

Raj Kochar [RJ]: My name is Raj Kochar.

MK: Raj Kochar. And...?

Sodesh Agrawal [SA]: My name is Sodesh [Agrawal?].

MK: Sodesh Agrawal. Okay. This is Maherush Khan, I’m at the Asian community centre in Easton. The date is 18th of February 2014 and I’m with Raj Kochar and Sodesh Agrawal. Hi. So tell me about where you were born and about your background.

RK: I was born in Nairobi, Kenya. And my parents had come from Punjab and settled in Kenya. I stayed there till 1972. I had most of my education in Kenya at first ’cos it was a British colony, and the system of education was same as we have in England. And then for my further education, at first I went to Makere College in Kampala, Uganda, which was affiliated with London University, so we had London University degree and all that. And, er, you want me to continue?

MK: Yeah, and what about you?

SA: I born in India, in Punjab, right. And I came in this country 1976 when I was married, then I came in this country.

MK: So when you moved here, did you feel as if it was a big change for you? Or did you settle in just fine?

RK: Well, for me, you know, I was teaching there in Kenya as well and we were quite happy there, you know, very good life in Kenya, climate was good and, you know, you could have servants to work for you. You could do your outside work and still enjoy life to the full. But [clears throat] we decided to move to UK because after independence, Kenya’s independence in 1963, Kenya government decided to use Swahili as franca lingua for teaching in schools and things like that. And, you know, when you have young children you have to think of their future, so that was the main reason for us to move to UK because otherwise, my husband had good job, I had good job and we were very reluctant to move. And because he had a British passport – he had been here for his education – we didn't have to wait in the queue or anything, it was our own decision.

MK: And how old were you when you moved here?

RK: Oh, don't ask me age [both laugh]. I won’t remember. I was thirty-plus, yeah.

MK: Oh, so you had your childhood in Kenya.

RK: All of it in Kenya, most of the – and very exciting period in Kenya because it was a time when people were fighting for their independence and all that. And we used to go to parliament, to the debates and things like that. It was when we came to UK, it was a bit of shock, despite the fact that I knew everything about UK style of living or winter, this, that or so. But winter – we came in May when it was beautiful, long days and whatnot. I was expecting my third child at that time and so for that reason, you know, I stayed in London for six months, getting on with [inaudible 00:03:52] [both laugh] and continue for a long time [laughs].

MK: And how was your childhood in Punjab?

SA: Yes, in Punjab is – I think it’s a good place for us, it’s a big change for me when I move here, you know, because life is very different. Over there, servants work for us, you know. We never do housework, like those things. And when we came here we have to do everything [laughs] ourselves, you know. It was very difficult for us but we manage it [laughs].

MK: When you were a little child you had a very carefree childhood and was there like loads of fun? Did you play loads of games?

SA: Actually, in child, um, when – I haven’t finished my study, you know, when I get married and, you know, I had left it there, although when after married we decided to move to England. So there isn’t much – any [laughs] [inaudible 00:05:18].

MK: So do you remember any particular moments from when you were back in Kenya or in Punjab? Any special moments, do you remember any?

RK: Yeah, I do remember very. I wouldn't call it exciting, rather shocking, because it was just before Kenya’s independence and there was this political leader, Tom Mboya, very popular and very sort of [efficient 00:05:50], outspoken and all that. And he used to give excellent speeches and things like that. And, you know, he was shot in the daylight in the main street of Kenya, Nairobi, and people were really shocked. I just happened to be at a certain distance when I could see that sort of incident. That really shocked me. I think Tom Mboya’s death, the other one was President Kennedy’s, which were really shocking things for me. But otherwise, we had very good time. It was very exciting time when Kenya got independence and people went – you know, in my childhood we, most of the time we did have bit of fear ’cos Mau Mau] activities were there and we were not allowed to go out late in the evening by my parents. The other exciting thing which I remember is when Queen, our Queen, as Princess Elizabeth, visited Kenya in 1952 before she became Queen. And we all lined up to welcome her and then later on they had garden party, and I went there as a Guide, so it was –

MK: So when Kenya was getting independence, did you feel as if your childhood was kind of restricted because there were some things you were not allowed to do or [inaudible 00:07:23]?

RK: It was for your personal safety, you know, because incident used to happen. Even if they won’t attack you directly, if the different parties are fighting amongst themselves, you may get caught in that. So parents were very careful, they won’t let us go out in the evening.

MK: Right, so it feel – it seems as if you had a very dramatic child – a very exciting childhood. Do you remember any like dramatic or special moments from your – when you were in Punjab, or any special, um, even situations you were in?

SA: I actually – I don't remember that sort of – any thing. But I remember we have all in our state, everyone is our uncle and aunties, everyone loves us and caring, that sort of people all that time. But now, when we came here, nobody wants to, you know, even in the daytime, streets are all empty all the time, you know. First when we move here I mean few months or few years I feel, you know, like empty, lonely, in this country. But, you know, then you used to [laughs].

MK: So in – back in Punjab, so the atmosphere was very homely and family-like.

SA: Yes, yeah.

MK: And you say that that's in contrast to here.

SA: Yeah.

MK: So how do you manage to make friends or kind of get with more people?

SA: I have, you know, when we came in this country, I have two-and-half-year-old son, so I take him to nursery or, you know, I made so many friends and that's it [laughs].

MK: So did you make any like –

RK: I had very hard time when I came here ’cos as I mentioned, my youngest daughter, she was born in November ’72 and I was in London at that time, so Hammersmith Hospital and all that. She was nineteen days old when we moved to Bristol because my husband had a job in Bristol. And house was there but we had to do everything A to Z. So you can imagine how tough it was having three young children and setting up the house and everything. For first two years I found it quite tough. Naturally, I didn't start work or anything for two and a half years. But when my youngest daughter was about two and a half years old then I found a childminder and started teaching again. And of course loneliness, as Sodesh mentioned, I felt as well. But luckily, my neighbours were very good, you know, two of middle-aged ladies or so, they would always sort of try to talk to me, come sometimes to my place and suggest various places where we could take children and things like that. That was good of them.

[00:10:57]

MK: And how did you feel as a community? Like, did you feel that people were too closed-in, like they didn't want to communicate with you? Or did you feel as if they were open?

SA: No, they mostly, you know, people were not very friendly, not friendly.

RK: I found it such a strange – I had such a strange feeling, you know, in Kenya and especially Nairobi, you can walk to anybody’s house, you don't even have to ring and tell them that we are coming or not, so friendly. And, you know, sort of everybody knew every – what everybody else is doing. Though some people might think that it was interfering with others’ life or not, but it wasn't like that. Here, you know, at first some of the people, I am talking about ’72, ’73, some of the people, they didn't like immigrants coming in, and that was especially true of elderly ladies and things like that. And I felt when – I can quote many incidents here when I was teaching in secondary school and so on, where, you know, sort of people would think that you are a tea lady and not a teacher when I would go to meetings and things like that. That – their attitudes were like that. And some people were very racist as well. But things have moved a long way now and I have taken a lot of part in that, you know, to bring about [the change 00:12:33] [laughs].

MK: Oh, really? So what kind of things did you do? Do you –

RK: Well, the thing is that, you know, my – I always feel that it’s no good to condemn people, you know. It’s much better to start talk to them about the issues and explain to them like reason why we came there and why we are not a burden on them because we have brought enough of wealth with us. And so, you know, they didn't have to worry about having benefits and things like that. And then, you know, I think to be fair to people, when they see, talk to you, can understand few issues, they accept you and they do become friends as well and I've got some very good friends as well here now.

MK: That's good. What about you, Sodesh? Did you face any racism or did you face any like inequality?

SA: When I go to, you know, nursery, to take my son, I find some people are very friendly and some are not. But, you know, sometimes, you know, all that time, you know, I was bit, er, I just want to make friends, some things I thought, all right, if he don't like me, it doesn't matter [laughs]. And because I was desperate to make friends, so I made so many friends over there and then I tried to go back to work but, you know, two and a half year old, my son, he doesn't want to stay with anyone. And I sent, er, took for two, three days and he is like, you know, crying or sick. Then my husband said, leave it, don't think about work, he has a job, so that's why I never sent them childminder or then I had another child, 1979. Then after that we had business then we never – I never work outside. Yeah.

MK: Okay. So both of you seem like you were strong enough to block out racism [inaudible 00:15:02]. And looking at your children – because both of you mentioned you have children, looking at your children, do you feel as if their childhood is going to go – it is or it’s going to be a lot different from yours?

SA: Yes.

RK: Of course.

SA: Theirs was here a lot different from us. But one good thing was that children, you know, they liked it here, they like to get involved in various sports and education as well. And they were, um, of course there may be incidents in school with them but unfortunately, or fortunately, they [laughs] didn't mention what to us. We always used to make sure, you know, to help them with their work, to take them anywhere they need to go, to carry on their activities and things like that. So I think there may be sometimes when they were not happy but most of the time they were happy and they had different childhood from ours. You can imagine what our games used to be, like just five stones and marbles, things like that. Here, you know, you had so many sophisticated toys and all those things they used to play with. And children, they make friends quickly. That's another thing. And yes, you know, it was very different, our children had everything what they want, what we did very, er, you know, hard work and struggle first few years. But our children, they have everything what they want. We try to give them good education and good schools, private schools, so they settle-in in a good, um, yeah, they are successful now, happy and all that. Yeah.

MK: So they will have more opportunities in life.

SA: Yeah.

RK: Well, they are all qualified, our children now, and, er –

MK: But do you feel as if in terms of their childhood, did they miss out on anything, compared to your childhood? Because like you said the community was really friendly and were more like a family. Do you think they kind of missed out on that?

RK: We were bit lucky, you know, there were about nine, ten families who had come from East Africa and we formed this one group where, you know, all young children, they used to meet as well, even if it’s just – it was just after five weeks or six weeks in time. So bit of attention, they would get like that or mix with other Asian children, if I may say. But one thing I would like to mention is, we had mostly lived on the outskirts of Bristol and for that reason we felt isolated. They weren’t any Asian families, many, or so on. The reason for that was that I was teaching in a school, Grange school in Warmley and we felt that it was better to be near to that. Our children, I think they had on the whole very good life, you know. They had good education, and they are doing well now.

MK: I think both of you mentioned that you both worked. Did you – and did you work, Sodesh?

SA: No. First not, but after that I did work in a business. Yeah.

MK: Oh, yeah. So did you feel you were more independent when you started working in Britain, or did you feel as if you still needed like, um, you still need like a community to like a group of friends?

SA: Actually, in business you meet loads of people, you know, so we never felt like that. But, you know, my oldest son, who, er, he born in India when we, er, he came in this country, he was two and a half years old, and he was, you know, like that. In India he’d – everyone, er, he called everyone uncle, aunties, but he, when he came, he – all in the morning he try to come out from the door, he said, no one is here. Then he say to someone, I remember, some English people, uncle, uncle. He came to the door, all in lifetime someone call me, it’s a little child, uncle [laughs]. And I mean, er, and he was bit, er, as you know, he was looking like that, some ladies, he can call grandma or like that, he missed some people. But slowly he get used to, you know.

[00:20:21]

MK: So when you moved to Kenya, did you move with your family or did you move alone?

RK: Well, my husband, myself and children, [overtalking 00:20:28] family.

MK: So what about your parents? Did you feel as if you –

RK: I had lost both my parents by that time in Kenya but I had my brother and sister in Kenya and another brother in Canada, so, you know, I never – and my husband’s sister was here. And then after that, gradually other people came when they wanted to. But I would like to say after the initial hard life and so on, I had very enjoyable time in UK. You know, I had been teaching all the time and then I had been providing most of training to teachers and things like that. I met lots of people in life and one thing which I really appreciated here was there were so many opportunities, you know, like I could go myself for further training for various things. And discussions with people, you know, you've got so many new ideas from them, whereas that opportunity was not there in Kenya. And the other thing which I can say I have enjoyed is even these, you know, extra-curriculum activities and, you know, visiting other countries, holidays and trying to keep fit, [laughs] things like that [laughs]. I may not look like [laughs].

MK: So when you were working as a teacher, did you feel as if your relationship with students or with other teachers was – was it good at the time?

RK: I must say I was lucky in that case because when I started teaching, first of all it was all-girls’ school and the head teacher and my head of department, they had both travelled quite a bit and in fact head of department, she knew quite a bit about Africa. So, you know, during my interview when I mentioned those things, they could see from where I was coming. And my concern was a bit that, you know, my pronunciation, some people may not understand, ’cos it was all-white school. So I just said that, you know, I feel very comfortable with everything else but this is my concern. So the head teacher, she said, oh, you will be surprised when you go to the staffroom, you will hear some fifteen, sixteen different accents [laughs] and yours is not bad at all, [laughs] don't worry about that [laughs]. So, you know, that was the first sort of push I got from there. I mean I know that my younger sister qualified here and everything, she went for teaching in London and she left after a week. She didn't want to see the school again because the students were so rough. So like that, I was lucky. After that I moved to teachers’ centre, from where I had taken up two jobs, research ones. I did my MA, I did homeschool and thing. And, you know, one thing which was good for our communities was to research in a bilingual approach, that our children who come from India, Pakistan or Bangla [or there 00:24:09], at home they speak their own language. When they come to school they are sort of flabbergasted with all this English thing. So it will be good if they are sort of taught in their own language and then reinforced everything in English. So I did a pilot project with my team of six teachers and initially it was just a project for two years but then it was perman – made permanent and even today we get teachers who go to schools and help our children.

MK: And when you started business did you find it was a hard job or did you find it easy for you? Were you able to, um –

SA: It was a very hard – hard job or – and long hours as well and seven days a week, you know, only half-day we get free, um, Sunday half-day. But on the other side, we, er, I stayed with the children, my children, so I can look after them and help with the business as well, so it’s a bit easy for me. If I go out for work then I have to leave my children somewhere and it – I think I, um, I feel I be happy to stay with my children and look after them and help the business as well.

MK: Yeah. And in terms, again to your childhood, going back to your childhood, do you remember any games or any music you used to listen to that you still carried on listening to when you came – or playing when you came to Britain?

SA: [Laughs] You say first, then. Actually, this is – we can’t give them, you know, all the times, you know, to our children because we very busy. But even then we, er, whenever we get time we played with them and sit down few hours and we can, we give them, you know, play with them.

MK: Yeah, but when you were little [overtalking 00:26:53].

SA: [Foreign dialect 00:26:54]. Yes, we, sometimes we teach them our things as well. Actually, I don't know much, you know, in India these things, I was, you know, only twenty-two years old when I came back, er, came in this country.

RK: She's asking you about yourself in India.

MK: When you were a little child, did you play – do you remember any music you used to listen to as a little kid?

SA: Yes. I like Indian music, you know, then, um, I like some Indian music and I played at home when my children were small.

MK: So is it like you like Bollywood music or is it very classical Indian music?

SA: Bollywood music, yeah. Yeah.

MK: How about you? What kind of music?

RK: I used to love music, you know. One reason was that my father had a business about fifty miles away from Nairobi and we used to do this contractor’s work, sand supply and things like that. So with my friends and all relatives, etc, during holidays we would go in a truck, you know, a lorry, sit at the back and go – they would go for sand supply, get sand. But we would make it into picnic and all the way sing [foreign dialect 00:28:39] songs and all that, which was – used to be great fun. I like Indian music very much. I like some classical music as well. English music, I know little bit, bits and pieces, but I haven’t got knowledge in depth, which I would really appreciate [laughs]. And classical dances, Indian dances, we used to enjoy. In Nairobi, you know, we had many cinemas where they would show Indian films and so on, so we always used to go. But one particular thing was drive-in. And they used to have films in the evening, so we all used to make it enjoyable by making it like picnic, take snacks with you and also go and watch the film, ask all our friends to come there as well [laughs]. Something which is not very practical I suppose here for – due to climate and the type of weather we have. So that was [overtalking 00:29:46].

MK: Yeah, and the movies you used to watch were quite a lot of Bollywood and Indian music, with Indian movies,

RK: Yeah. And we used to get quite a few artists from Kenya and from other parts of the world which we would go and see them. Unfortunately here, you know, when we came with three children and full-time teaching, I didn't have much time [laughs] for these things. But I –

[00:30:10]

MK: Bollywood movies are really big.

RK: Yeah.

MK: Do you remember any particular ones that you really enjoyed or that's your favourite?

RK: Oh, I liked [foreign dialect 00:30:18] [both laugh]. It was really good.

SA: So many films –

RK: So many.

SA: Some [inaudible 00:30:23] or – and – on that time.

RK: Bobby [inaudible 00:30:32].

SA: [Foreign dialect 00:30:33]. Many, huh.

RK: There were some excellent, er, you know, Indian films before and especially music, you know, music has so much depth, Indian music, Pakistani or whatever. And I used to love [inaudible 00:30:50] and qawwalis and all that [laughs]. I still remember Yusuf Azad who used to come to Kenya and then we used to go and sit till after two, three in the morning to listen to [inaudible 00:31:04] [laughs].

MK: Yeah. And do you feel as if in terms of Indian music and English music, there's a big difference or do you think it’s just the same type of music but different languages?

RK: There are differences. As I said before that Indian music, you know, the poetry or wording has got lot of meaning in it, whereas some of the English music, pop music and things like that could be just superficial. But I don't have deep knowledge of classical music, some of which can be very good English music as well. But otherwise, music is something, you know, whether you know the language or not, I think everybody understands it and can get pleasure out of it.

MK: Yeah. In terms of music, did you ever take on dance? Did you ever dance as a hobby or do you have any performances that you did?

SA: Not performance but as a hobby we did dances.

RK: [Both laugh] Bhangra and all that.

MK: Yeah, bhangra is pretty popular as well. Yeah, it’s very upbeat. So you still dance as [overtalking 00:32:18]?

SA: Yeah.

RK: We do bhangra. I go for my fitness class and I do [inaudible 00:32:23] as well there [laughs].

MK: Do you do it now as well?

RK: Yeah. Oh, yes [laughs].

MK: And so that's all music, movies. And did you ever watch English movies?

RK: I watch more English movies than Indian, [laughs] I’m sorry to say. But there is variety in, er, yeah. And before [inaudible 00:32:48] Indian movies have changed a lot now but before it used to be like triangle, love triangle and actors running around and all that [laughs].

MK: And do you remember any other movie or do you watch English movies?

SA: Yes but my children, [laughs] you know, watching the – they said, sit down, Mum, you watch with us [laughs]. Yeah.

MK: Like [foreign dialect 00:33:16]?

RK: Yeah. Some movies are very good, you know, English movies are very good. Yeah. And I like these quiz programmes very much, like Who Wants to be a Millionaire?

SA: Family Fortunes.

RK: Family – like Countdown, all those programmes.

SA: Countdown is my favourite one. I watch all those.

MK: And do you watch any dramas?

SA: English?

MK: English, Hindi, Indian.

SA: English, Hindi. We used to watch, you know, East Ender, Coronation Street, Home and Away and so many – now Hindi [overtalking 00:33:57].

RK: I am not so much for English soaps. I go more for Indian there because we – on Zee we have some very good programmes, Indian soaps and Pakistani ones, one of them [foreign dialect 00:34:16], [laughs] I like – I really like that. I don't know whether you watch it or not [laughs].

MK: Yeah. Is there any particular ones you like?

RK: This is [foreign dialect 00:34:23].

MK: [Foreign dialect 00:34:24], all right, yeah.

RK: [Inaudible 00:34:26] and all that. You know, in that you see so much about culture, okay. But I like the language they speak, so softly and so nicely.

SA: I watched last time [foreign dialect 00:34:39], Pakistani, that was very good.

RK: You know Urdu has got some sweetness language if properly spoken and so on and that's why I love – like poetry [inaudible 00:34:54].

MK: Yeah, so in – did you feel as if you have an advantage of knowing these different languages because your choices of music, programmes and movies is just so wide now?

RK: Yeah. Oh, it enriches your life, isn’t it? You find it easier to mix with other people and like that's how you make friends as well.

MK: So would you like to learn any other languages, if there's any that you would – that you think would help you in the –

SA: Actually, I enjoy, you know, my Hindi, Punjabi and English dramas, that's it. I don't want to learn any more now [laughs].

RK: I learnt a few others, Latin [? 00:35:41] but because I didn't use it I have forgotten that. Now my grandchildren, they are learning, you know, Spanish, French or Italian but I just feel it’s too much for me [laughs] to start everything new now.

MK: Also in this community, in the Asian community, there are people who speak loads of different languages, so it’s kind of – is it good for you to know these [overtalking 00:36:06] with everyone? And have you – like you have made – are like everyone here all your friends or is it like – is it kind of segregated?

RK: No, no, no. We have got [inaudible 00:36:16], we have got Punjabi friends, we've got Muslim friends [overtalking 00:36:21].

SA: We do understand little bit Punjabi and, um, Punjabi, Hindi or –

RK: ’Cos with Hindi, you know, it’s very similar to Urdu. The difference is in script. And same with Punjabi and Hindi, they are very similar. So these three languages, we don't have much problem in talking to people. When it comes to, you know, Bangla, that's a bit different and, er, but there are a few words which one can understand. And we use what I say [foreign dialect 00:36:57], [laughs] mix them all up. I mean you won’t believe even now we speak so many Swahili word, Kenya’s language, and for – so somehow or other we do manage to talk to people, convey our messages and things like that.

MK: And because everyone talks to you here and everyone’s friends, how do you spend your time together? Like, what do you – I’m assuming you see other quite a lot?

SA: Once a week. Once a week we come here.

MK: How like – you spend your time together, like –

RK: Here, we have so many opportunities, you know, they have fitness classes, exercise, then these therapy things where that instructor tells you quite a few things. And then networking, you know, mixing with people, talking to them and all that. And sometimes they have this – these sessions of information-giving and things like that. Yeah, that's what [inaudible 00:37:54].

MK: And did you ever – when you come here to the community and you see all the – all your friends, do you think – does that feel the same as when you – back in home when you go – in Kenya and Punjab and you – when you have that community, do you think it’s the same here or –

RK: Oh, yeah, you do feel that.

MK: You still have the same feeling because – yeah.

RK: Yeah, we do feel like that. It’s like, you know, if you meet people often then it’s like you develop feelings for them and it becomes more like a family.

MK: Yeah, so you'd say everyone here is like family?

SA: Yes, now if now we go to India we don't feel the same because we live in here, so our friends are here, our children are here, but all that time when we came from India, all that time we miss India because we left our all family over there, our friends over there, and that's why we missed, you know, all that time. But now, now we used, you know –

MK: And when you came here, you left your, um, did you come here alone or did you – were your parents with you?

SA: No, I came with my husband and my child, that's it.

MK: Yeah.

RK: You know, it’s surprising, now we like doing our own work. We have become independence thing, whereas before we used to rely on servants [laughs]. That's the change.

MK: Yeah, so that's the big change.

RK: Yes.

MK: Yeah. And in terms of family, when you say your children grew up here, so they were born here, did they get to see their grandparents at all?

SA: Actually, um –

MK: Because –

RK: As I said before, I had lost both my parents but my mother in law was around, my father in law died in Kenya but my mother in law was here for a good twenty years and she used to see them quite often. But she lived in London, we were here in Bristol, so she would come and stay with us for a month or so or we would go and stay.

[00:40:09]

SA: I lost my mother-in-law and father in law when we moved to London and my father died when I was only [nine 00:40:20] years old and my mother, she come visit us I think once, once or twice. And one or two time I think, twice my children went to see her in India, that's it.

MK: And did you visit back to Kenya, India, after – like how often did you visit back and did it – did it [inaudible 00:40:49]?

RK: My husband went once to Kenya to see his father when he was not well, but I haven’t gone back to Kenya ’cos before we left we had visited Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, I’d seen most of the places worth seeing. And we used to go to different – other, different countries to visit. But I do keep in touch with some of my good friends. Before we used to write letters or maybe talk once in a while on phone, now with Internet [laughs] you can always email.

MK: And if you ever – if you go back to Kenya it'll be a whole new place to you and a lot of things would be changed.

RK: Yeah, this is what my friends tell me, you know, they even tell that the school which was best school in Nairobi where we used to teach, has changed so much you wouldn't recognise it [laughs] at all that. And naturally, you know, with independence, more original population, Africans, have come to the city and all that and changes are bound to take place.

MK: What about Punjab, do you think it’s going to change a lot?

SA: Yes, it’s changed a lot because, you know, as I said before people are friendly, loving and caring but not now anymore because everyone is busy, they go out, you know. We, when we go over there they haven’t got enough time to, you know. It’s –

RK: That's sad.

SA: Very different now.

MK: So do you think it’s generation differences? Like, before people actually made a effort to be a community but now people are too busy, like [overtalking 00:42:41].

SA: Yeah, I think – yes.

RK: I think lots of things have happened. At first, as Sodesh mentioned, I used to feel that people here have no time to say hello to you or anything but then when you start living here you see how much pressure there is, when you have to do household work, you have to look after children, go outside and do outside job, etc, as well. So people are mostly concerned with dealing with their jobs and doing things rather than spending their time socialising and so on. And at present what I find really sad is that children, younger generation, they're so much into technology, you know, they'll take their mobile, sit there and start sending texts or telephoning and so on. So I tell my granddaughters [laughs] – we have got two – that when you come here, you are not going to play [laughs] games on your mobile or on your iPad and like that.

MK: So did you ever try any technology? Because my mum, she has a phone and she's always on it now because I showed her how to work it. But did you ever try a technology? Did you find it addictive?

SA: Yes.

RK: I, you know, I have got phone as well but I keep it switched off. I tell all my friends that I – it’s for my use only, I use it when I need to use it.

SA: But some people are – yeah, they are all the time [overtalking 00:44:09] and all the time with – someone came to your house, they are doing something. I mean this is something I think too much, find it rude, you know.

RK: Yes, sort of you are sitting in company and then somebody rang – rings you and you are talking to them for half an hour or fifteen minutes [laughs].

SA: I remember I – when my children was young, I – if anyone come to our house, please switch off the television because it look bad. But now in this day if you go anywhere, small children, even adults, they are doing texts or watching television. They don't care.

RK: And I just tell my children and, you know, children and grandchildren, when anybody has come, you're not going to have telly on or this, that or so ’cos it’s not as – and that gives the impression that you don't care for other people, you know. They are not idle people, they have also made an effort to come and see you, so you should appreciate that.

MK: Do you think it’s more important to have a community and like a good social life and good relationships with people rather than giving more priority to your technology? Because nowadays technology is everything for people, like from checking the weather, the messages, basically everything, almost everything, so obviously people give more priority to their technology. But do you think that's what's ruining relationships?

RK: Yeah. I don't do that. I mean I do know computer a bit now and I can do things, but I just feel that I would rather be in contact with people, talk to them. But I miss people used to write such nice letters before and now, you know, that's just a text message, which is again spoiling language as well.

SA: This is one thing, you know, when we moved to England, we miss our families, we can’t even phone them because if we phone to India, on that time we have to book the call. So, I think six, seven hours they take when you can talk to them. And even then, when you talk, you can only hear hello, hello? That's it. Because we have to speak too loud. Even you don't understand what they're saying. It was so difficult all that time, then we start writing letters, and three, four days we take to – six, seven days letters. And when letter came from India, we read again and again same letter [laughs]. But –

MK: But don't you think that's a great thing because that actually showed people made so much effort –

RK: Plus their feelings and their affection for you and all that.

SA: But now, now we just pick up the phone and [laughs] –

MK: Some things are a lot easier now, yeah. But do you think, yeah, that's kind of – do you think, um, [inaudible 00:47:47] community or is it making a bigger or stronger community, do you think?

RK: I think it has got many advantages. It brings – you can bring people together by passing information, you know, for business, etc, it’s good from that point of view. Even socially, it can be good. But I think there should be some sort of limitation. This will be certain rules, like we were talking now, if you are – somebody has come –

SA: That meant, you know, which we have, you know, with our families but not now anymore because everyone is busy and they can phone or, er, all that time they write the things, so many things they show their feelings actually from the heart, you know, what they write. But now, now not –

RK: I think people are becoming too independent now, you know. That's the sad part of it. I don't know, other people may like that, you know. Some people attach too much importance to privacy, this, that or so. But for me, human contact is still important [laughs].

MK: What about when you were younger? Did you have to go outside and call all your friends and make a group and then [overtalking 00:49:16] that you can’t meet. Like, nowadays we just send a text message and go – you don't go and see them face to face but –

RK: No, but we do see them when, you know, you go to fitness classes and things like group – group activities [inaudible 00:49:30] quite a few.

MK: No, I’m talking about younger people, kind of send a text message and then –

RK: Mind you, you use younger generation, some of them do make their own programmes. It’s, er, but it’s like parents may not know all the time when they get together and do things and all that.

MK: So when you were young did you – or like technology wasn't a bit thing back then, was it?

RK: No, no.

MK: So did you feel as if you were at a disadvantage then or did you kind of prefer there was no technology?

[00:50:02]

RK: Well, we didn't know about these things, that they exist, you know.

MK: But like did you wish there was no technology?

RK: ’Cos if we talk about technology, take computer or mobiles or all that, these things have come out in the ’80s, 1980s and after that, and our child – my childhood at least was before that, so I didn't miss any of those things. I still remember that when I was teaching in Kenya, you know, I used to prepare students for O-level and A-level, Cambridge exams here, all I had was a projector to show them slides and then that machine on which you could duplicate worksheets and so on. Nothing else, that was all. And when I came here in ’72 and started teaching I was surprised how many stuff, facilities were here. So I spent quite a bit of time, you know, sort of go to every course, update myself and so on. ’Cos one thing with me was that I was the only Asian and I didn't want anybody to turn around and say, oh, she's no good. I took challenge for myself. So, you know, after whole day work in school then come home, prepare meal, look after children, my husband used to help a lot with everything, we will see to their lessons and everything. When we had finished with everything then I would sit at night and prepare my notes for the following lessons the next day, mark all the books before I would go to sleep, [laughs] so much so that my colleagues started telling that Raj, you make problem for us when you [laughs] mark everything, and so on, please slow down, [laughs] otherwise students expecting from us same thing [laughs].

MK: So both of you seem very hard-working ladies, so childcare, work, business, teaching, obviously there's settling in to your whole new – a whole new world basically. Did you get any free time at all?

RK: Not initially when, you know, we were bringing up children and that whole time, full-time job and so. But there were always certain times when we would have good time, for example, family weddings or family functions or anything.

SA: One thing we never [laughs] – you know, when we had business then we move in Bristol, first we live in London, and on that time we – no one is here for us, you know, in Bristol. We don't know any Asian family or – then we find out there is one shop who is – where we can hire, you know, video tapes, Indian video tapes. So we went there and we saw all – there are so many Indian videos over there. Then we have seven videos for week, every night when homework is finished, children asleep, then we watch one [laughs] – one movie every day [laughs]. I never forget that [laughs]. On that time I mean we enjoy movie, one movie every day, seven days. And weekend, er, children wants, Mum, can you bring Amitabh Bachchan’s movie? We want to see that film as well [laughs]. Then we enjoy, you know, that time with children, sit down with children.

RK: Yeah, [inaudible 00:54:03] which I still remember is BBC used to have very few programmes, Asian programmes, none of them in fact. And then they – Channel Four started showing one Indian film a week and they used to have Indian programme for half an hour on Sunday morning which we used to watch [laughs].

MK: So it was really restricted but yet still you found a lot of programmes and that kind of filled in your free time as well?

RK: Yeah.

MK: That's good. And also in terms of, um, did you find any music as well, like in – with the movies in – was there any Indian music on TV, Indian, I think cassettes?

SA: Yeah.

RK: We used to keep lots of cassettes which, you know, even when cooking you can have music in the background and things like that.

MK: And did you ever share your movies with other people, like from different cultures, did you like – did you try to share, like kind of inform other people about your culture, and did that kind of work or not?

RK: It would be, you know, you talk to people. With me it was pretty different because being a teacher we used to have sometimes forum where English parents would be there, Asian parents would be there, and I would be providing them with some information and also resources, how to help their children and so on, and then we will start talking about these things. And I belonged to some groups, women’s groups, where we would have competitions, like cooking session or craft, arts and craft and things like that.

SA: Like I said, we had so many customers, you know, come to shop. They talk about culture or so many things, why are putting bindi, why are you dressed like that today, is there something going on. We talk like that, you know, they –

MK: What kind of business was it?

SA: Convenience store.

MK: Okay.

RK: You know with me, because I used to go to schools, so I used to talk to – in assembly about our Diwali, how we celebrate, why, and what's involved and [inaudible 00:56:37], same about Eid, if I won’t know much, I – then I used to find out or prepare one of the parent [inaudible 00:56:45] enough to speak and tell them. And then we used to have like parties where, you know, even English teachers loved to use our costumes and get dressed up and all that. And we would cook Indian and Pakistani and all food and raise funds for school as well like that.

MK: Yeah. Did you have like festivals for Diwali, [inaudible 00:57:10], when you came here, did you still celebrate those? And was it [overtalking 00:57:14]?

RK: Yes, we do celebrate.

MK: What, was it the same here, then? Because I imagine when I was in Punjab – or did you used to celebrate in Kenya?

RK: We used to celebrate in Kenya more in my case, you know, than we did here because at first there were like a few times restrictions, you can’t do too many things, because some of these festivals in Kenya and India, they may go on for days. Here, if you can spare one day, [laughs] that's more than enough.

MK: So [inaudible 00:57:51] major change and did you feel as if you were missing them? Because obviously festivals are important for you. And did you feel as if you were missing out now that you were in Britain and you were kind of restricted to doing – in like fireworks, I’m guessing Diwali, did you still do fireworks?

RK: Yes. I personally don't like fireworks. For me it’s causing too much pollution and wasting money. So what I usually do is – my family’s children, they like to have a few – but I just give some donation instead of burning money like that [laughs].

MK: What about you? What about like [overtalking 00:58:35]?

SA: No, we do, you know, because children love that sort of thing, so we do because of the children, they – yes.

MK: And did you – back then was there any – I’m assuming you're both Hindu? Are you Hindu?

RK: Yeah.

MK: Were there any temples back then that you could go and [overtalking 00:58:57]?

SA: Oh, yeah, in Kenya, we had – in Nairobi we had lots. And here, that's another thing, you know. ’72, when we came, there was no Hindu temple in Bristol and that was later on when few people, mostly Gujarati first of all, and I happened to have moved to multiculture education centre at that time. And Mr [Yoshi 00:59:22] was one who started this collection for temple. Then this – we have now one on Church Road, you know, that is converted from a church to a temple. But otherwise, we didn't have anything before.

MK: In temples in Punjab, were they – I assume they were really big and grand. Do you remember anything special about them?

SA: In Punjab there are so many temples, some are very small and some are very big. But they all different, you know.

[01:00:05]

RK: And there are such beautiful carving and –

SA: All different.

RK: You know, these images they make, such craftsmanship according to them, they almost look alive, the people.

MK: Do you think the temples in Kenya and temples in Punjab, will they be – would have been similar or would they be completely different?

RK: I think similar. Similar type. I mean if you go to London and now see a few of the temples, they have tried to bring same sort of craftsmen, artists and all that, to create the same atmosphere.

MK: Yeah. And do you remember – did you used to go to the temples often, and do you remember any special memories from the temples or special like things that just happened, like the priest or the things priest would say and do you –

RK: I remember [laughs] two, three funny things. Though [clears throat] my primary education was in [inaudible 01:01:06] school which was attached to the temple, and so, you know, before starting of our day we would all go to the temple and say our prayers. And then we were given Prashad. So as [laughs] naughty children we used to sit in front so that we will get Prashad and all that [laughs]. So at that time maybe it wasn't so much for prayer that we would go, but we all used to go for that, for Prashad [laughs].

MK: Yeah, because I went to – because of the trips, so I knew about Prashad.

RK: Yeah. And then, you know, every year we used to have [foreign dialect 01:01:45] which was like Krishna’s birthday, and they would have performances and so on. So, children were always expected to do items and all that. So there with the schoolchildren we used to do things.

MK: Do you remember anything special about temples in Punjab?

SA: Actually, [sighs] I think all temples are the same, you know, same thing, they –

RK: You know, they haven't got – in India you have to remember one thing, that it’s such a vast country and there are many different nationalities in India. So, you know, though we all believe that there's one God but in different parts of India people believe in different form of God. So in southern India you may find that they worship different god. They call it different god but it’s just the one same form. In Gujarat they will have some different one, in Punjab they will have different form. So God is one but it’s the people’s perception, how they see God, ’cos nobody has seen God. For me, God does not exist, you know. There is certain power which makes it all. But people, they need something to be able to concentrate on and that's why they have these images in the temples. And because they are different nationalities, they worship different forms.

MK: Did you ever feel like a spiritual feeling when you went to a temple?

RK: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was such peaceful atmosphere and you get some sort of satisfaction when you are sitting, communal feeling and saying prayers and things like that.

MK: So was it really powerful?

RK: It’s good. You felt peace, you feel nice, happy.

MK: And do you remember when temples first started coming to the UK? Like when you first started building temples in the UK, do you remember the first temple you'd been to in the – when you came here?

RK: Well, I went to London to one of the temples. I don't even remember but it was in Ealing or Wembley but most of them were built sort of later.

SA: I came, you know, in 1976. I live in, you know, Slough. There was one temple over there on that time.

MK: And when you went to those temples, did you get the same spiritual feeling or was it more –

RK: I just visited one time and [laughs] I’ll be frank, and I – it was like just go quickly and come out [laughs] because we didn't have enough time, or people with whom you have gone, you had to think of them. And in my case, you know, it’s slightly different, I belong to [foreign dialect 01:04:54] family. They don't believe in [foreign dialect 01:04:59], images and things like that. So at first my husband never used to be keen to go to the temple. Now, he's fine, he comes [laughs] and visits with me.

SA: Similar, me. I, er, my family don't like to go to the temple but now they all go to the temple. On that time we only go into, you know, Jain temple, that was different in, you know, the main temple. So we were Jain, we live in Punjab but our family was called Jain, so we –

RK: They different sections, they have amongst religious groups as well.

MK: Also I’m interested in knowing when you came here, like you got to try some – so like different kind of foods. And did you feel – I mean did you like it or not?

RK: Food?

MK: Yeah, as in –

RK: We still make our own [laughs].

SA: Actually, I was, you know, vegetarian, so I still vegetarian, so I like to make my food, you know, on my own [laughs].

MK: Did you ever – did anyone ever take you out to a restaurant, like you had vegetarian food but it was like completely different from what you're used to, what you usually eat?

SA: Outside food, you know, is different. We go out and enjoy sometimes. I mean it’s bit different as well. In India, in Punjab, there are so many kind of food over there, you know, you can’t compare them [laughs]. [Overtalking 01:07:10].

RK: I love all international food. Most of them, I love them. And we go quite often out, to eat outside, children like that, you know, for example, last weekend we went to Thai restaurant [laughs] [inaudible 01:07:25] food and then we had English food on Sunday. So – and at home then I had made for breakfast parathas and things like that, [laughs] stuffed things and all that. And meat, etc, chicken curry and [inaudible 01:07:43] kebab. We try different European dishes as well.

MK: Okay, so – but mostly you had Indian food?

RK: At home we prefer to have Indian food. And I do cook other foods as well, Italian, Mexican and, you know, Spanish a bit. It’s just, you know, having visited so many countries and being here for such a long time.

MK: Hmm. And did you like pick up any new hobbies when you came here?

SA: We haven’t got enough time, you know, [laughs] no spare time.

RK: Main one is my, this one, exercise, etc, [inaudible 01:08:22], so I go to fitness centre for that.

SA: I was only listening music but once I remember in my own housework and listening music on the back, that's it [laughs].

RK: And the other thing is which is not hobby at the moment, but because of pains and aches and all, I go regularly for massage, etc, which I find very soothing [laughs].

MK: And when did you – do you remember any funny moments, like that happened to you, like while you were here? Do you remember when you came or when you were taking care of your children, anything funny happened?

RK: Oh, many funny things happened but you tend to forget them [laughs].

SA: Can’t remember.

MK: And how did your children –

SA: There is one thing, [laughs] when I, you know, I told you my son was only two-and-half-year-old, we – one day we went to Southall. He saw so many Indian ladies [both laugh] after maybe two, three months and [laughs] – and he said, oh, so many [foreign dialect 01:09:34] or whatever. My sister in law said, no, no, don't say anything [foreign dialect 01:09:40] [both laugh].

RK: My daughter, you know, who was born here, [he 01:09:47] would say that, you know, auntie, [inaudible 01:09:49], especially other Asian ladies when anybody would come, this is your auntie or this is your uncle, you know, how many aunties and uncles have I got?

[01:10:00]

MK: Asian – Asian families are really [overtalking 01:10:02] and –

RK: But you will be call close friends of etc, as well, auntie, uncle and so on. And she been with English children most of the time, she must have got confused her, how many uncle and aunties have I got [laughs].

MK: And did you ever – your children missed out on family, as in like you said, he called everyone. And do you feel as if he kind of missed having a big family or did you miss having a big family?

SA: Yes.

RK: I didn't want to have big family. Children-wise, I didn't want to have big family. I enjoy this fact that I would have a few but bring them up properly. I think most of us, this is feel like that. Can we go now?

MK: Yes, sorry [laughs]. So –

RK: One full hour [laughs].

MK: No, it’s fine. And the interview is ending with Raj K –

RK: Kochar.

MK: Kochar and Sodesh Agrawal. Thank you.

RK: Okay.

SA: You know, sometimes we just cook, I just go on talking.

[END OF RECORDING – 01:11:12]