}
OH431 Interview with Sue Langelaan (OutStories Bristol)
Please note this is not a full, complete transcript but a detailed summary of the recording
V09_Langelaan_1 [0:15:43] [Session one: 28 September 2012] Susan Laura Langelaan [SL], born 9 March 1948. Comments on childhood in Worthing, Sussex. Dated boys during school - “did what was expected of me”. Clearer about sexuality when went to Teacher’s College 1966-1969. Crushes on female friends and teachers during school. Church functions and sport main venues for socialising during childhood. Went through religious phase around age 14-16. [06:24] Went to Teachers College at Bishop Otter College, Chichester. Studied physical education (PE) teaching. PE ‘wing’ at the college was female only. Describes college life – accommodation, met another gay female student – became friends. First lesbian relationship was after college – age 21. Comments on terminology of the time – during college, term ‘gay’ preferred by both men and women, rather than ‘lesbian’ or ‘homosexual’. Comments there was no gay society at the college, no gay social life. Mentions homophobic comment by another student – “you kept fairly quiet about it” as a result. [11.23] Mentions coming out to a tutor, who SL suspected was a lesbian. In teaching at that time, not acceptable for teachers to be out, but the tutor lived with her female partner. Story of SL’s high school teacher, Barbara, coming out to the 6th form students just after the end of term, by inviting the students around to the house she shared with the (female) history teacher. SL considered it brave. [14:06] Discusses how she ‘knew’ her teachers were lesbian – more formal, severely-cut clothing, “the walk”. [interview paused to address mic position]
V09_Langelaan_2 [01:14:28] [Note that mic was accidentally on hold for the very start of this track. The recording missed SL’s comments that she had heard there were a lot of gay men and women in teaching, so she anticipated meeting some when she went to her first teaching job, but this didn’t happen]. Describes her first teaching job (1969/1970) in a tiny town called Mytchett in Surrey, near the Surrey/Hampshire border, near Ash Vale and Camberly. No other gay people there, so SL decided to find other gay people. Found organisation listing in a book called ‘One in Twenty’ by Brian Magee. Joins Kenric (‘social organisation for professional women’, i.e. lesbian organisaton). Describes going to her first Kenric party in Richmond, London, and meeting her first female partner there. [05:00] Comments on lack of gay social events in tiny towns, as opposed to larger cities. Comments on lack of communication methods to find out about gay events – no computers, magazines, Lesbianline, etc.’ Spare Rib’ was a feminist magazine at the time, but difficult to get hold of. Comments on anxiety about attending Kenric party in London – “a life changing thing”. Describes a Kenric-organised, regular lesbian (women only) evening at ‘The Gates’, ‘The Gateways Club’ – the main lesbian club in London (off the Kings Road?), which was used for the filming of the lesbian movie ‘The Killing of Sister George’. Many regular attendees at the Gateways Club were extras in the film. SL didn’t feel unsafe attending the Gateways Club. [10:19] SL suspects gay men had security concerns in those days, because of the illegality of male homosexuality. SL didn’t have many gay male friends at that time. Met more gay men when SL moved to Southampton (circa 1971/1972). Describes attending “The Viking Club” in Southampton, which was run on Friday (mixed gay men and women) and Saturday (women-only club), nights in the back room of a pub. After the Viking closed for the evening, would buy ‘carry-out’ drinks and continue the party at someone’s house. Nights would usually go through until breakfast. SL suspects she found out about the Viking Club via someone in Kenric. Comments on having a relationship and sharing a flat with a woman who had been thrown out of the Wrens (the Women’s Royal Naval Service) for being a lesbian. [15:57] Comments on ways in which women would be identified as a lesbian in the Wrens. Story of how SL’s girlfriend and her then-partner had been interrogated by the Navy regarding being a lesbian, and discharged from the service. [18:30] V09_Langelaan_2 [cont. from 18:30] SL was still teaching in 2 year backfill position, and was not ‘out’ at work (early 1970s). After this, SL had back problems, so sought other work: civil service work in the courts in Southampton and Winchester, then education welfare officer in schools. Discusses being in the closet and having mostly lesbian friends at time, having lesbian flatmates, and the importance of surrounding herself with people she could be open with. [24:26] Describes move to Bristol in the mid-1970s to study Social Work at Bristol University (1977-1979). Mentions attending GaySoc events, also going to a lesbian club on Whiteladies Road that was next to a steak house. Made some friends at the club. Mentions social work placement at Hartcliffe, Bristol, where one of the senior social workers came out as a lesbian to SL towards the end of the placement - became friends. SL found it easier to be out in Bristol. SL later (1979 - 1984) returned to Hartcliffe as a social worker. Story of being outed by a colleague during informal after-work drinks: “Are you on the gay scene?”. No backlash from the outing, but in March 1984, when SL moved to her next social work job in Knowle, the new organisation already knew she was a lesbian. SL didn’t experience any problems because of that. [32:41] Discussion of liberal social views in social work profession at odds with broader societal conservatism (1980s). SL’s social life at this time still predominantly gay-focussed outside of work. SL on the Gay West committee in late 1980s. Became Chair of Gay West in 1988 (until circa 1991). Describes Gay West at the time - very male-dominated. SL organised women-only events to attract more women to the organisation. Describes Gay West events, differences between male and female interactions with the organisation. SL’s phone number was contact for Gay West – SL provided informal phone counselling when needed. Gay West Advertisements placed in The Evening Post (Bristol) and The Chronicle (Bath). [40:53] Mentions in 1980s more communication outlets for gay issues – lesbian magazines, The Pink Paper. Greater visibility for gay people at this time - one of the outcomes of organisations like Gay West. Gay West strictly social, not activist organisation. Mentions Labour Party Gay Organisation boat trip she attended. Comments on the difficulties of hosting women-only events in Gay West – small numbers, friction from the men. Story of partner at the time becoming a police officer at the age of 40 – came out during her interview with the police. [47:41] Impact of HIV/AIDS on SL’s friends. Mentions HIV medication AZT bringing a lot of hope to the community. [49:34] Early 1990s – SL didn’t sense the post-Thatcher easing of social conservatism under PM John Major had any impact on her life or on Gay West. Gay West never asked for government funding. Mentions production of Gay West’s newsletter ‘The Diary’. Communication methods still predominantly print and phone. SL would still not hold hands with her partner in the street at this point - “not done”[53:24]. V09_Langelaan_2 [cont. from 53:24] In 2012, SL does hold partner’s hand in the street. “The great change” was the civil partnership legislation. [53:46] Story of police raid on a Bournemouth gay club in the 1970s. Police harassment. Mentions 4th anniversary of her own civil partnership. Story of forgetting last year’s anniversary, being reminded by family. Civil Partnership legislation has made SL feel OK about holding hands with her partner in public. Story of SL’s civil partnership anniversary dinner where a gay male couple at next table were also holding hands. [58:11] Story of civil partnership and receiving a congratulatory card from the neighbours. Discussion about impact of Civil Partnership legislation on straight community as well – feel more free to talk about gay matters. Mentions dealings with bank managers in 1980s and 2000 – no reaction to same sex couple getting mortgage together. [01:02:15] Discussion about negative impacts versus positive impacts of government policy – positive changes (Civil Partnerships) have much greater impact. [01:04:33] Mentions living in Bristol from 1977-1999. Describes moving away from Bristol in 2000 – moving in with current partner. Mentions going to The Red Coat club in Bristol (near the Galleries car park), but not really involved in the gay scene. Social life revolved more around dinner parties with friends. Story about dining in home by the Docks (late 1980s/early 1990s), people walking along the docks looking in, and closeted friend trying to cover up that it was a lesbian gathering. [01:09:04] Mentions police raid referred to earlier was in Bournemouth. No memory of similar raids in Bristol. Mentions gay men being harassed by the police on The Downs in Bristol. Describes retiring at 60, being very busy in her retirement, being financially comfortable - “very fortunate”. No longer involved in Gay West. Describes current social life, which includes both gay and straight friends.
Notable Quotes: Track 1: 12:36 - 13:49 Good (but longer) quote about school teacher coming out to 6th form students, and comment by one of the students to Sue afterwards, saying “’wasn’t it sad’ and I thought ‘no it was wonderful’, because it gave me some validation for how I was feeling. But that was very much still the attitude that it was rather sad if you were a lesbian.” Track 2: 23:08 – 24:07 And I suppose because we were quite hidden, it was more important to spend time together. I mean now we’ve got lots of friends who are not gays and lesbians. But then it seemed more important to mix with those people because you could be open and straightforward with them. Whereas we can be open and straightforward with people who aren’t now, and if they don’t like it they can go away, and if they do then that’s fine. And I think that’s one of the ways that legislation and attitudes changing have meant such a lot to lesbian and gay community, really, because we’re not a community as such now, we’re part of the wider community, which is, I think, a really good thing. 41:49 – 42:09 I think that’s one of the things that an organisation like Gay West did. It enabled people to get information about where they could meet others. And some were still quite closeted I think and would find it difficult in any other way, but through an organisation it seemed to work quite well. 57:11 – 58:06 …because we have the right to be partners in law. Not just it’s OK if you want to, but we are partners in law, or we have the right to be partners in law. I think that made a tremendous difference to walking down the street hand in hand and my current partner and I certainly do. Not all the time but heterosexuals don’t always hold hands you don’t have to, but the feeling that you can. We were in a restaurant in fact on Wednesday for our anniversary and there were two chaps at the table next to us who were holding hands ‘oh how lovely’. So we did the same and we said our good evenings to them as we left. 01:04:07 - 01:04:29 We didn’t think there would be partnerships or anything else like that in the future. We just thought life would go on as it is and hopefully most human beings would just accept us as we were. But I do think that that has been a major thing that government has done for us. 01:13:34 01:13:56 So we just get together with friends, and if they’re gay or lesbian, or not, it doesn’t matter. And I think that that’s how I would like life to be, really. I would hope that more people would just feel they’re just friends. That’s the way it should be.
V09_Langelaan_1 [0:15:43] [Session one: 28 September 2012] Susan Laura Langelaan [SL], born 9 March 1948. Comments on childhood in Worthing, Sussex. Dated boys during school - “did what was expected of me”. Clearer about sexuality when went to Teacher’s College 1966-1969. Crushes on female friends and teachers during school. Church functions and sport main venues for socialising during childhood. Went through religious phase around age 14-16. [06:24] Went to Teachers College at Bishop Otter College, Chichester. Studied physical education (PE) teaching. PE ‘wing’ at the college was female only. Describes college life – accommodation, met another gay female student – became friends. First lesbian relationship was after college – age 21. Comments on terminology of the time – during college, term ‘gay’ preferred by both men and women, rather than ‘lesbian’ or ‘homosexual’. Comments there was no gay society at the college, no gay social life. Mentions homophobic comment by another student – “you kept fairly quiet about it” as a result. [11.23] Mentions coming out to a tutor, who SL suspected was a lesbian. In teaching at that time, not acceptable for teachers to be out, but the tutor lived with her female partner. Story of SL’s high school teacher, Barbara, coming out to the 6th form students just after the end of term, by inviting the students around to the house she shared with the (female) history teacher. SL considered it brave. [14:06] Discusses how she ‘knew’ her teachers were lesbian – more formal, severely-cut clothing, “the walk”. [interview paused to address mic position]
V09_Langelaan_2 [01:14:28] [Note that mic was accidentally on hold for the very start of this track. The recording missed SL’s comments that she had heard there were a lot of gay men and women in teaching, so she anticipated meeting some when she went to her first teaching job, but this didn’t happen]. Describes her first teaching job (1969/1970) in a tiny town called Mytchett in Surrey, near the Surrey/Hampshire border, near Ash Vale and Camberly. No other gay people there, so SL decided to find other gay people. Found organisation listing in a book called ‘One in Twenty’ by Brian Magee. Joins Kenric (‘social organisation for professional women’, i.e. lesbian organisaton). Describes going to her first Kenric party in Richmond, London, and meeting her first female partner there. [05:00] Comments on lack of gay social events in tiny towns, as opposed to larger cities. Comments on lack of communication methods to find out about gay events – no computers, magazines, Lesbianline, etc.’ Spare Rib’ was a feminist magazine at the time, but difficult to get hold of. Comments on anxiety about attending Kenric party in London – “a life changing thing”. Describes a Kenric-organised, regular lesbian (women only) evening at ‘The Gates’, ‘The Gateways Club’ – the main lesbian club in London (off the Kings Road?), which was used for the filming of the lesbian movie ‘The Killing of Sister George’. Many regular attendees at the Gateways Club were extras in the film. SL didn’t feel unsafe attending the Gateways Club. [10:19] SL suspects gay men had security concerns in those days, because of the illegality of male homosexuality. SL didn’t have many gay male friends at that time. Met more gay men when SL moved to Southampton (circa 1971/1972). Describes attending “The Viking Club” in Southampton, which was run on Friday (mixed gay men and women) and Saturday (women-only club), nights in the back room of a pub. After the Viking closed for the evening, would buy ‘carry-out’ drinks and continue the party at someone’s house. Nights would usually go through until breakfast. SL suspects she found out about the Viking Club via someone in Kenric. Comments on having a relationship and sharing a flat with a woman who had been thrown out of the Wrens (the Women’s Royal Naval Service) for being a lesbian. [15:57] Comments on ways in which women would be identified as a lesbian in the Wrens. Story of how SL’s girlfriend and her then-partner had been interrogated by the Navy regarding being a lesbian, and discharged from the service. [18:30] V09_Langelaan_2 [cont. from 18:30] SL was still teaching in 2 year backfill position, and was not ‘out’ at work (early 1970s). After this, SL had back problems, so sought other work: civil service work in the courts in Southampton and Winchester, then education welfare officer in schools. Discusses being in the closet and having mostly lesbian friends at time, having lesbian flatmates, and the importance of surrounding herself with people she could be open with. [24:26] Describes move to Bristol in the mid-1970s to study Social Work at Bristol University (1977-1979). Mentions attending GaySoc events, also going to a lesbian club on Whiteladies Road that was next to a steak house. Made some friends at the club. Mentions social work placement at Hartcliffe, Bristol, where one of the senior social workers came out as a lesbian to SL towards the end of the placement - became friends. SL found it easier to be out in Bristol. SL later (1979 - 1984) returned to Hartcliffe as a social worker. Story of being outed by a colleague during informal after-work drinks: “Are you on the gay scene?”. No backlash from the outing, but in March 1984, when SL moved to her next social work job in Knowle, the new organisation already knew she was a lesbian. SL didn’t experience any problems because of that. [32:41] Discussion of liberal social views in social work profession at odds with broader societal conservatism (1980s). SL’s social life at this time still predominantly gay-focussed outside of work. SL on the Gay West committee in late 1980s. Became Chair of Gay West in 1988 (until circa 1991). Describes Gay West at the time - very male-dominated. SL organised women-only events to attract more women to the organisation. Describes Gay West events, differences between male and female interactions with the organisation. SL’s phone number was contact for Gay West – SL provided informal phone counselling when needed. Gay West Advertisements placed in The Evening Post (Bristol) and The Chronicle (Bath). [40:53] Mentions in 1980s more communication outlets for gay issues – lesbian magazines, The Pink Paper. Greater visibility for gay people at this time - one of the outcomes of organisations like Gay West. Gay West strictly social, not activist organisation. Mentions Labour Party Gay Organisation boat trip she attended. Comments on the difficulties of hosting women-only events in Gay West – small numbers, friction from the men. Story of partner at the time becoming a police officer at the age of 40 – came out during her interview with the police. [47:41] Impact of HIV/AIDS on SL’s friends. Mentions HIV medication AZT bringing a lot of hope to the community. [49:34] Early 1990s – SL didn’t sense the post-Thatcher easing of social conservatism under PM John Major had any impact on her life or on Gay West. Gay West never asked for government funding. Mentions production of Gay West’s newsletter ‘The Diary’. Communication methods still predominantly print and phone. SL would still not hold hands with her partner in the street at this point - “not done”[53:24]. V09_Langelaan_2 [cont. from 53:24] In 2012, SL does hold partner’s hand in the street. “The great change” was the civil partnership legislation. [53:46] Story of police raid on a Bournemouth gay club in the 1970s. Police harassment. Mentions 4th anniversary of her own civil partnership. Story of forgetting last year’s anniversary, being reminded by family. Civil Partnership legislation has made SL feel OK about holding hands with her partner in public. Story of SL’s civil partnership anniversary dinner where a gay male couple at next table were also holding hands. [58:11] Story of civil partnership and receiving a congratulatory card from the neighbours. Discussion about impact of Civil Partnership legislation on straight community as well – feel more free to talk about gay matters. Mentions dealings with bank managers in 1980s and 2000 – no reaction to same sex couple getting mortgage together. [01:02:15] Discussion about negative impacts versus positive impacts of government policy – positive changes (Civil Partnerships) have much greater impact. [01:04:33] Mentions living in Bristol from 1977-1999. Describes moving away from Bristol in 2000 – moving in with current partner. Mentions going to The Red Coat club in Bristol (near the Galleries car park), but not really involved in the gay scene. Social life revolved more around dinner parties with friends. Story about dining in home by the Docks (late 1980s/early 1990s), people walking along the docks looking in, and closeted friend trying to cover up that it was a lesbian gathering. [01:09:04] Mentions police raid referred to earlier was in Bournemouth. No memory of similar raids in Bristol. Mentions gay men being harassed by the police on The Downs in Bristol. Describes retiring at 60, being very busy in her retirement, being financially comfortable - “very fortunate”. No longer involved in Gay West. Describes current social life, which includes both gay and straight friends.
Notable Quotes: Track 1: 12:36 - 13:49 Good (but longer) quote about school teacher coming out to 6th form students, and comment by one of the students to Sue afterwards, saying “’wasn’t it sad’ and I thought ‘no it was wonderful’, because it gave me some validation for how I was feeling. But that was very much still the attitude that it was rather sad if you were a lesbian.” Track 2: 23:08 – 24:07 And I suppose because we were quite hidden, it was more important to spend time together. I mean now we’ve got lots of friends who are not gays and lesbians. But then it seemed more important to mix with those people because you could be open and straightforward with them. Whereas we can be open and straightforward with people who aren’t now, and if they don’t like it they can go away, and if they do then that’s fine. And I think that’s one of the ways that legislation and attitudes changing have meant such a lot to lesbian and gay community, really, because we’re not a community as such now, we’re part of the wider community, which is, I think, a really good thing. 41:49 – 42:09 I think that’s one of the things that an organisation like Gay West did. It enabled people to get information about where they could meet others. And some were still quite closeted I think and would find it difficult in any other way, but through an organisation it seemed to work quite well. 57:11 – 58:06 …because we have the right to be partners in law. Not just it’s OK if you want to, but we are partners in law, or we have the right to be partners in law. I think that made a tremendous difference to walking down the street hand in hand and my current partner and I certainly do. Not all the time but heterosexuals don’t always hold hands you don’t have to, but the feeling that you can. We were in a restaurant in fact on Wednesday for our anniversary and there were two chaps at the table next to us who were holding hands ‘oh how lovely’. So we did the same and we said our good evenings to them as we left. 01:04:07 - 01:04:29 We didn’t think there would be partnerships or anything else like that in the future. We just thought life would go on as it is and hopefully most human beings would just accept us as we were. But I do think that that has been a major thing that government has done for us. 01:13:34 01:13:56 So we just get together with friends, and if they’re gay or lesbian, or not, it doesn’t matter. And I think that that’s how I would like life to be, really. I would hope that more people would just feel they’re just friends. That’s the way it should be.
