}
OH432 Interview with Mary Milton (OutStories Bristol)
Please note this is not a full, complete transcript but a detailed summary of the recording
V09_Milton.wav [01:39:10] [16 November 2012] Mary Milton (MM), born 20 August 1966, Swindon, Wiltshire. Describes Swindon and her immediate family. Not much gay scene in Swindon, especially for gay women. MM hung out with gay men in Swindon before she came out herself – saw how small the scene was (early to mid 1980s). Discusses questioning her gender as a young child – announcing to her parents that she was meant to be a boy. Later came to identify as lesbian. Continued telling people she was meant to be a boy until she realised, around age 8, that people thought that was odd, and “they didn’t want to play with you” if you said it. Discusses other tomboys at school – one of them became a lesbian later on. MM didn’t know the word ‘lesbian’ until she was mid-teens. There weren’t any role models. MM recalls there was some talk about gay men, but not about lesbians. [00:03:33] Her parents, both librarians, gave her a book about sexuality (MM was age 11) – had one paragraph about women who ‘make a decision to be lesbian’, but they had miserable lives, which MM ‘didn’t fancy’. This made MM ‘package it up’. MM has recently spoken to her mother about that passage in the book, and her mother said she wouldn’t have given it to her if she’d known that was in there. [00:05:00] Describes coming out her parents when she was in her 30s. Parents were old when they had her – MM assumed, because of their older generation, she was protecting them by not coming out sooner. Her parents knew she was gay anyway, but didn’t say anything because ‘it was your private information, we didn’t want to pry’. MM thinks parents may have discussed it in private. Her father is now dead, so can’t ask him. [00:06:53] Mentions coming out to her younger brother – he was fine with it. [MM SAYS SHE DOESN’T WANT TO DISCUSS BROTHER’S REACTION, SO WE CHANGE TOPICS]
[00:07:28] Discusses schooling. Did A levels because felt not ready for to start working (August birthday – MM was younger than her peers) – did poorly. Wanted to work in the media. Began working with Media Arts (organisation) in Swindon, which taught people how to make videos. Hung out at Media Arts rather than at college – ‘growing up’ experience – hanging out with gay men, going to gay clubs – didn’t matter that you weren’t “a proper girl”, unlike at school, where “everybody was the same and I was different”. Met some science fiction fans at college – “misfits”, lots of gay men – they were “proper friends who accepted me for who I was” – OK to mention you might be gay. [00:10:09] Swindon nightclub called Level 3 had a gay night. Other clubs labelled as ‘alternative’ meant “you can get in, whatever you’re wearing”. MM came back to Swindon after uni (early 1990s) – gay club was run in a pub called The White House – the only gay club – a load of gay men, very few women. Level 3 club – a few women, but mostly men. [00:11:34] Describes first time at gay club (age 19/20) – first time seeing other lesbians. MM knew she was gay, but didn’t use the word ‘lesbian’. Went out with a guy for at least a year around this time (he turned out to be gay) – they are still friends now. Protecting each other, plus he looked older and could get served in pubs. [00:13:59] MM discusses sexuality issue being subsumed somewhat by other issues – not being bullied, for example, during school years. Talks about influence of the book her parents had given her – pushed lesbianism to the back of her mind. Discusses difficulty of getting information at that time. Gender and personal identity more pressing issues than being gay at that time. [00:15:45] Talks about being bullied at school – in hindsight, it was about gender stuff – not fitting in. [00:16:30] Talks about A levels and friends she made at that time, gaining independence.
[00:18:17] Talks about starting the Swindon chapter of the Dr Who fan club, and gay men she met through that. Her parents’ reactions to gay male friends (fine) – but MM still feared they would be disappointed and worried if she came out to them. [00:21:00] After A levels, MM decided to definitely study media, but didn’t have good enough A levels for university – got into study in Harrogate (North Yorkshire), but it didn’t start for another year (studied from 1985-1987). Then went to Bournemouth University from 1987-1990. Had a year off before the Harrogate course – father told her to get a job as a library assistant at Swindon Library. Talks about working at Swindon Library – good fun, made good friends to go clubbing with. ‘Growing up’ year. Good preparation for being away at college. For most of the year, MM was dating the man mentioned previously (who turned out to be gay). [00:25:15] MM came out properly at university. Discusses having straight boyfriends who lived in other towns when she lived in Harrogate – so she wouldn’t see them very much - “Made me look normal, cause I had a boyfriend” – massively insulting to the guys. MM is sorry about it now. Decided to be more honest about sexuality at university. Shared a flat with some gay men in last year of university. MM, along with her flatmates, started a GaySoc at Bournemouth University. Very small group. Came out to some people, but not all. Hadn’t yet been with a woman. Discusses knowing you’re gay without having had sex with someone of the same gender. Discusses discomfort over relationships with men – unfair to them, as MM knew it wasn’t what she really wanted – main driver for coming out – ‘just be honest’. Used the word ‘gay’ when first came out. Still doesn’t like the word ‘lesbian’ very much. [00:30:00] Talks again about the two sexuality books her parents gave her when she was age 11 – ‘Boy Girl Man Woman’ and another (can’t recall the name). Comments on Bournemouth University GaySoc activities (1989). Discusses impact of Clause 28 on MM’s post-university teaching work – uncertainty about how to deal with students who were having personal troubles. Confusion about Clause 28 within teaching. Comments on challenges of teaching generally.
[00:36:27] Discussion of MM being ‘out’ or ‘closeted’ at work during different periods, and why. Discussion of reactions of people to her coming out – uncomfortable conversations (late 1980s/ early 1990s). [00:41:06] Discussion about ‘gay’ as being viewed as ‘alternative’ at that time, social kudos to have gay friends (if you were straight). Mentions coming out to brother. Brother member of Pentecostal Church. [00:42:53] Discusses being out at work when MM became freelance sound engineer – no weird reaction – social attitudes changing (late 1990s). MM’s opinion that Civil Partnership legislation made a difference to social attitudes and reactions to you being gay. Discussion about social acceptability of homosexuality now, and willingness of people to talk about it (2000s). [00:48:48] Comments on MM’s first relationship with a woman in 1989/1990. Comments on the number of women at Bournemouth gay clubs (cf Swindon clubs). [00:51:25] Talks about moving to Bristol with girlfriend (1995) – practical decision, closer for work. Difficulties of meeting/socialising with other gay women. ‘Venue’ magazine main place to find gay events listed. Preference for meeting people through non-bar events – get to know them better. Attended lesbian sign language classes run by Helen Webster – made friends through that. Met Lucy Ray (musician) – started women’s (lesbian) music night called ‘Weekenders’ with MM. Discusses difficulty of finding venues at which to hold the music night – moved around a lot – Three Tuns (pub near the City Library), biker pub in Easton, The White Horse (pub near St Pauls) – entrance to club was through the ladies toilets, Kearneys Bar in St Werburgh’s. Describes Weekenders - was run first Sunday of each month from March 1998 to early 2000s (2002?), mostly lesbian performers. [01:01:00] Debates within organising group around inclusion of transwomen in the venue. MM comments on changing attitudes towards transpeople since that time. Comments on music night performers and audience - ranged from 20 to 50 people attending each month. Comments on the importance of having a safe space for lesbian performers. Also ran bingo and karaoke night on Friday nights for a time at the same venue. Comments on other women’s music events which sprang up after The Weekenders finished – ‘Women Live’ run by George Clark at Café Unlimited (Gloucester Rd), ‘Indigo’. Comments on how much easier it is to find venues for women’s nights now as opposed to late 1990s/early 2000s.
[01:08:43] Discusses the origins of Shout Out [live gay radio show on BCFM (Bristol Community radio FM)] (began July 2010). Terry Starr’s idea. Founded by MM and Terry Starr, with early presenters Andy Thomas and Jayne Chard. Original 30 minute lunch time slot, but were granted 1 hour Thursday evening slot in September 2010 (ongoing). Comments on focus of community media – not just about ratings, also about meeting a need in the community. Discusses Shout Out’s focus – aims to cover topics relevant to the various LGBT communities, to disseminate information to the LGBT community. [01:16:30] Discusses LGBT communication methods – relationship of Shout Out to social media, role of social media. MM also began missinglesbians.co.uk (around 2004, ongoing) – website of women’s events listings for the Bristol area (and nearby regions) - to fill the gap – Venue magazine not good for last-minute events/event changes, missed a lot of events. Discusses missinglesbians.co.uk – how and why it started, marketing approaches. [01:21:41] Reflects on being a ‘misfit’, having to go out of your way to find other people like you. Comments on how different it is now, due to Internet and more (and more positive) images of gay people in the media. Comments on impact of HIV/AIDS on MM’s willingness to come out in the late 1980s and early 1990s – pushed MM ‘back in the closet’. Discusses importance of gay marriage issue - MM views gay marriage as better than Civil Partnership. Importance of gay marriage issue to transpeople. MM’s mother’s attitude towards gay marriage – ‘wants to give me away’. Father’s attitude to MM’s partner – positive – treated MM’s partner with the same acceptance he gave MM’s brother’s wife. Comments on MM’s father’s dementia. [01:33:40] Reflects on Bristol gay community, on importance of community and unity amongst the LGBT – “together we’re strong”. Bristol a place where it is easier to get involved in community things. Bristol draws people to it. Comments on changing gay representations in the media over the past 30 years – “we’ve come a long way”. Comments on impact of [UK soap opera] Brookside’s first lesbian kiss [originally aired 1993] – broadcast in 2012 Olympic Opening Ceremony – first televised lesbian kiss in some countries as a result. [01:39:10]
QUOTES:
[00:02:16] “I remember my first feelings as being ‘oh, something isn’t right, I’m not like other girls’, and I wanted to do things that were more associated with boys, like play football and climb trees... I probably carried on telling people that until I was about eight, when I realised that when you said that sort of thing people thought you were odd and they didn’t want to play with you, so I stopped saying it”
[00:04:09] (Talking about the book her parents gave her to explain sex/sexuality to her) “There was one little paragraph which said yes, there were people who made a decision that they wanted to live a lesbian lifestyle, but this was a really difficult decision to make and most people who make that decision end up being miserable. So I thought ‘oh, I don’t fancy that’.”
[00:27:45] “I think this is one of the things that people, straight people, or everybody perhaps, get confused about sort of gay feelings is that you know you’re gay, you don’t have to have slept with someone to know you’re gay… People assume you’re straight unless you say otherwise… Lots of gay people have straight relationships before they come out as gay… I think I needed to try to have those straight relationships to really truly realise that they weren’t right and that actually they were really unfair with the people I was trying to have the relationship with because they were really nice guys.”
[01:33:45] “Bristol’s been a place where I’ve been really comfortable actually, and it’s been a place where I’ve made myself part of a gay community which I enjoy being part of.”
V09_Milton.wav [01:39:10] [16 November 2012] Mary Milton (MM), born 20 August 1966, Swindon, Wiltshire. Describes Swindon and her immediate family. Not much gay scene in Swindon, especially for gay women. MM hung out with gay men in Swindon before she came out herself – saw how small the scene was (early to mid 1980s). Discusses questioning her gender as a young child – announcing to her parents that she was meant to be a boy. Later came to identify as lesbian. Continued telling people she was meant to be a boy until she realised, around age 8, that people thought that was odd, and “they didn’t want to play with you” if you said it. Discusses other tomboys at school – one of them became a lesbian later on. MM didn’t know the word ‘lesbian’ until she was mid-teens. There weren’t any role models. MM recalls there was some talk about gay men, but not about lesbians. [00:03:33] Her parents, both librarians, gave her a book about sexuality (MM was age 11) – had one paragraph about women who ‘make a decision to be lesbian’, but they had miserable lives, which MM ‘didn’t fancy’. This made MM ‘package it up’. MM has recently spoken to her mother about that passage in the book, and her mother said she wouldn’t have given it to her if she’d known that was in there. [00:05:00] Describes coming out her parents when she was in her 30s. Parents were old when they had her – MM assumed, because of their older generation, she was protecting them by not coming out sooner. Her parents knew she was gay anyway, but didn’t say anything because ‘it was your private information, we didn’t want to pry’. MM thinks parents may have discussed it in private. Her father is now dead, so can’t ask him. [00:06:53] Mentions coming out to her younger brother – he was fine with it. [MM SAYS SHE DOESN’T WANT TO DISCUSS BROTHER’S REACTION, SO WE CHANGE TOPICS]
[00:07:28] Discusses schooling. Did A levels because felt not ready for to start working (August birthday – MM was younger than her peers) – did poorly. Wanted to work in the media. Began working with Media Arts (organisation) in Swindon, which taught people how to make videos. Hung out at Media Arts rather than at college – ‘growing up’ experience – hanging out with gay men, going to gay clubs – didn’t matter that you weren’t “a proper girl”, unlike at school, where “everybody was the same and I was different”. Met some science fiction fans at college – “misfits”, lots of gay men – they were “proper friends who accepted me for who I was” – OK to mention you might be gay. [00:10:09] Swindon nightclub called Level 3 had a gay night. Other clubs labelled as ‘alternative’ meant “you can get in, whatever you’re wearing”. MM came back to Swindon after uni (early 1990s) – gay club was run in a pub called The White House – the only gay club – a load of gay men, very few women. Level 3 club – a few women, but mostly men. [00:11:34] Describes first time at gay club (age 19/20) – first time seeing other lesbians. MM knew she was gay, but didn’t use the word ‘lesbian’. Went out with a guy for at least a year around this time (he turned out to be gay) – they are still friends now. Protecting each other, plus he looked older and could get served in pubs. [00:13:59] MM discusses sexuality issue being subsumed somewhat by other issues – not being bullied, for example, during school years. Talks about influence of the book her parents had given her – pushed lesbianism to the back of her mind. Discusses difficulty of getting information at that time. Gender and personal identity more pressing issues than being gay at that time. [00:15:45] Talks about being bullied at school – in hindsight, it was about gender stuff – not fitting in. [00:16:30] Talks about A levels and friends she made at that time, gaining independence.
[00:18:17] Talks about starting the Swindon chapter of the Dr Who fan club, and gay men she met through that. Her parents’ reactions to gay male friends (fine) – but MM still feared they would be disappointed and worried if she came out to them. [00:21:00] After A levels, MM decided to definitely study media, but didn’t have good enough A levels for university – got into study in Harrogate (North Yorkshire), but it didn’t start for another year (studied from 1985-1987). Then went to Bournemouth University from 1987-1990. Had a year off before the Harrogate course – father told her to get a job as a library assistant at Swindon Library. Talks about working at Swindon Library – good fun, made good friends to go clubbing with. ‘Growing up’ year. Good preparation for being away at college. For most of the year, MM was dating the man mentioned previously (who turned out to be gay). [00:25:15] MM came out properly at university. Discusses having straight boyfriends who lived in other towns when she lived in Harrogate – so she wouldn’t see them very much - “Made me look normal, cause I had a boyfriend” – massively insulting to the guys. MM is sorry about it now. Decided to be more honest about sexuality at university. Shared a flat with some gay men in last year of university. MM, along with her flatmates, started a GaySoc at Bournemouth University. Very small group. Came out to some people, but not all. Hadn’t yet been with a woman. Discusses knowing you’re gay without having had sex with someone of the same gender. Discusses discomfort over relationships with men – unfair to them, as MM knew it wasn’t what she really wanted – main driver for coming out – ‘just be honest’. Used the word ‘gay’ when first came out. Still doesn’t like the word ‘lesbian’ very much. [00:30:00] Talks again about the two sexuality books her parents gave her when she was age 11 – ‘Boy Girl Man Woman’ and another (can’t recall the name). Comments on Bournemouth University GaySoc activities (1989). Discusses impact of Clause 28 on MM’s post-university teaching work – uncertainty about how to deal with students who were having personal troubles. Confusion about Clause 28 within teaching. Comments on challenges of teaching generally.
[00:36:27] Discussion of MM being ‘out’ or ‘closeted’ at work during different periods, and why. Discussion of reactions of people to her coming out – uncomfortable conversations (late 1980s/ early 1990s). [00:41:06] Discussion about ‘gay’ as being viewed as ‘alternative’ at that time, social kudos to have gay friends (if you were straight). Mentions coming out to brother. Brother member of Pentecostal Church. [00:42:53] Discusses being out at work when MM became freelance sound engineer – no weird reaction – social attitudes changing (late 1990s). MM’s opinion that Civil Partnership legislation made a difference to social attitudes and reactions to you being gay. Discussion about social acceptability of homosexuality now, and willingness of people to talk about it (2000s). [00:48:48] Comments on MM’s first relationship with a woman in 1989/1990. Comments on the number of women at Bournemouth gay clubs (cf Swindon clubs). [00:51:25] Talks about moving to Bristol with girlfriend (1995) – practical decision, closer for work. Difficulties of meeting/socialising with other gay women. ‘Venue’ magazine main place to find gay events listed. Preference for meeting people through non-bar events – get to know them better. Attended lesbian sign language classes run by Helen Webster – made friends through that. Met Lucy Ray (musician) – started women’s (lesbian) music night called ‘Weekenders’ with MM. Discusses difficulty of finding venues at which to hold the music night – moved around a lot – Three Tuns (pub near the City Library), biker pub in Easton, The White Horse (pub near St Pauls) – entrance to club was through the ladies toilets, Kearneys Bar in St Werburgh’s. Describes Weekenders - was run first Sunday of each month from March 1998 to early 2000s (2002?), mostly lesbian performers. [01:01:00] Debates within organising group around inclusion of transwomen in the venue. MM comments on changing attitudes towards transpeople since that time. Comments on music night performers and audience - ranged from 20 to 50 people attending each month. Comments on the importance of having a safe space for lesbian performers. Also ran bingo and karaoke night on Friday nights for a time at the same venue. Comments on other women’s music events which sprang up after The Weekenders finished – ‘Women Live’ run by George Clark at Café Unlimited (Gloucester Rd), ‘Indigo’. Comments on how much easier it is to find venues for women’s nights now as opposed to late 1990s/early 2000s.
[01:08:43] Discusses the origins of Shout Out [live gay radio show on BCFM (Bristol Community radio FM)] (began July 2010). Terry Starr’s idea. Founded by MM and Terry Starr, with early presenters Andy Thomas and Jayne Chard. Original 30 minute lunch time slot, but were granted 1 hour Thursday evening slot in September 2010 (ongoing). Comments on focus of community media – not just about ratings, also about meeting a need in the community. Discusses Shout Out’s focus – aims to cover topics relevant to the various LGBT communities, to disseminate information to the LGBT community. [01:16:30] Discusses LGBT communication methods – relationship of Shout Out to social media, role of social media. MM also began missinglesbians.co.uk (around 2004, ongoing) – website of women’s events listings for the Bristol area (and nearby regions) - to fill the gap – Venue magazine not good for last-minute events/event changes, missed a lot of events. Discusses missinglesbians.co.uk – how and why it started, marketing approaches. [01:21:41] Reflects on being a ‘misfit’, having to go out of your way to find other people like you. Comments on how different it is now, due to Internet and more (and more positive) images of gay people in the media. Comments on impact of HIV/AIDS on MM’s willingness to come out in the late 1980s and early 1990s – pushed MM ‘back in the closet’. Discusses importance of gay marriage issue - MM views gay marriage as better than Civil Partnership. Importance of gay marriage issue to transpeople. MM’s mother’s attitude towards gay marriage – ‘wants to give me away’. Father’s attitude to MM’s partner – positive – treated MM’s partner with the same acceptance he gave MM’s brother’s wife. Comments on MM’s father’s dementia. [01:33:40] Reflects on Bristol gay community, on importance of community and unity amongst the LGBT – “together we’re strong”. Bristol a place where it is easier to get involved in community things. Bristol draws people to it. Comments on changing gay representations in the media over the past 30 years – “we’ve come a long way”. Comments on impact of [UK soap opera] Brookside’s first lesbian kiss [originally aired 1993] – broadcast in 2012 Olympic Opening Ceremony – first televised lesbian kiss in some countries as a result. [01:39:10]
QUOTES:
[00:02:16] “I remember my first feelings as being ‘oh, something isn’t right, I’m not like other girls’, and I wanted to do things that were more associated with boys, like play football and climb trees... I probably carried on telling people that until I was about eight, when I realised that when you said that sort of thing people thought you were odd and they didn’t want to play with you, so I stopped saying it”
[00:04:09] (Talking about the book her parents gave her to explain sex/sexuality to her) “There was one little paragraph which said yes, there were people who made a decision that they wanted to live a lesbian lifestyle, but this was a really difficult decision to make and most people who make that decision end up being miserable. So I thought ‘oh, I don’t fancy that’.”
[00:27:45] “I think this is one of the things that people, straight people, or everybody perhaps, get confused about sort of gay feelings is that you know you’re gay, you don’t have to have slept with someone to know you’re gay… People assume you’re straight unless you say otherwise… Lots of gay people have straight relationships before they come out as gay… I think I needed to try to have those straight relationships to really truly realise that they weren’t right and that actually they were really unfair with the people I was trying to have the relationship with because they were really nice guys.”
[01:33:45] “Bristol’s been a place where I’ve been really comfortable actually, and it’s been a place where I’ve made myself part of a gay community which I enjoy being part of.”
