}
OH433 Interview with Kim Renfrew (OutStories Bristol)
Please note this is not a full, complete transcript but a detailed summary of the recording
V09_Renfrew.wav [01:05:34] [27 August 2012] Kim Renfrew [KR], born 1 Nov 1969, Swansea, Wales. Brief description of Swansea, Wales. Mentions living near natural beauty spot Gower. Description of family of origin – older sister, father, mother (now deceased). Comments on father’s work and associated absences from the home, parent’s separation (when KR was 11 or 12) and reconciliation (when KR was 16). Comments on stability provided by family house – KR was born in the front room of the house, and house remained in the family until 2011. Comments on not taking family holidays – 1970s, working class, visit nearby beauty spot instead. Describes parents’ separation and reconciliation. Mentions father’s job as marine engineer on ships. Mentions mother working intermittently – toy car factory, administrative work. Comments on household being unusual in retrospect, but didn’t seem it at the time. Mother died when KR was 23.
[00:03:51] Discusses childhood realisations of her own gender expression and sexuality – tomboy, male friends, played with action men and toy guns. In primary school, expectation that she would get married ‘because that’s what girls do’. Teenager – realised same-sex attraction – popstars first, then ‘real girls’. Discusses lack of label for sexuality as an early teenager. Mentions now identifies as lesbian. Comments on finding labels for her sexuality around age 14 or 15. [00:05:50] Describes knowing a lot of gay people, creative, drama, musical people at that time (early to mid 1980s). Comments on growth of AIDS and homophobia in the media at that time, yet also presence of androgynous popstars, gender less polarised, easier to not be ‘girly’. Comments on having more gay male friends than lesbian friends at that time. [00:06:58] Comments on coming out to a close male friend. No bad reactions amongst peers. Describes mother’s reaction to KR’s coming out as a teenager and young adult – difficult, never reconciled. Describes relationship with father – never came out to him, but ‘he knows’ and likes KR’s current girlfriend and accepts her as family. Parents atheist and otherwise liberal, just not about homosexuality.
[00:10:15] Describes Swansea – city, working class, but also universities. KR lived ‘a triple life’ – home (homosexuality not accepted), school (some friends knew) and broader social (‘quite gay’). Began going to gay clubs aged 15 (mid 1980s). Lived ‘triple life’ for 3 or 4 years. 4 or 5 gay clubs in Swansea at the time – most mixed, although some separate women’s venues that KR didn’t go to. Describes Jingles (gay nightclub), having rocks thrown at her on way into club, security at club – sign members book, grill on door. Concealing identity at the club, concerns about being seen going there. [00:16:01] Police – not hostile, but not sympathetic either. Mentions being hit by another lesbian patron at Jingles for drinking her beer. Difficulties in meeting women to date – not like in the lesbian pulp fiction novels (e.g. Desert Hearts) – no revelatory moment in the clubs. First girlfriend when KR was 18 (still at school), with 21 year old woman.
[00:19:51] Finished school 1988, went to Oxford University, split up with girlfriend. Lived in an Oxford College – ‘eye opener’. Students didn’t mix with the town people. Mentions joining university gay society. First experience of gay organisations – lot of campaigning, arguing, discos. About 50 members of university gay society (GaySoc), out of 12,000 students. Started dating a girl who was from Swansea. [00:23:22] Oxford gay society campaigns - HIV/AIDS, OutRage, Peter Tatchill organisation, ACT UP. Went to talk by New York ACT UP campaigner. Separate women’s group – held women-only tea parties, distributed dental dams – KR and her friends not comfortable with women-only events. Comments on women being involved with gay men’s issues (e.g. HIV/AIDS), but gay men not getting involved with women’s issues. Comments on misogyny in gay scene.
[00:26:43] At Oxford for 3 years, graduated in recession – no jobs, so moved back to Swansea with parents (1991), worked in a university bookshop for 2 years – back in the closet at home and work – ‘a miserable time’. Summer 1993, KR’s mother died, and KR went to do Masters degree in Linguistics at Essex University. Comments on struggles with isolation during bereavement. Joined Essex University GaySoc – comments on factional disputes, trivial arguments – KR irritated by it - ‘more a doer’. Essex Gay Society included both students and people from the town (Colchester) – very different to Oxford Gay Society. Describes Colchester – market town, university, garrison – odd mix of people. Monthly Gay Soc bus trip to gay pub/disco at Fox and Hounds in small village in Essex countryside. Had a girlfriend in Essex for a year until moving to London.
[00:34:04] 1995 – KR moved to London – that was revelatory moment ‘like in the books’. Describes living in London - mentions Britpop, lots of queer publications, new clubs, exciting time to be lesbian or gay. Mostly mixed clubs – ‘Ducky’, ‘Popstars’,‘Trade’ (druggie club). KR hasn’t had many lesbian friends, so mixed clubs better. Heavy nightclubbing for 2 years. Job writing computer manuals. Met current girlfriend (Clare) at end of 1996 – stopped clubbing as much. Comments on difference between gay male sexual behaviour and lesbian sexual behaviour. 2001 – moved to Amsterdam with girlfriend. Comments on maintaining her friends despite not clubbing any more. Had more parties at home rather than clubs. Current girlfriend, Claire, was first girlfriend to meet KR’s father.
[00:41:35] 2001 - both KR and girlfriend dissatisfied with their London jobs, needed change. KR does second Masters degree at Birkbeck College (University of London). Claire got job in journalism in Amsterdam, prompting the move. Begins freelance journalism work. Lived in Amsterdam for nearly seven years. [00:44:25 – NOISE FROM RINGS CLICKING – KR REMOVES RINGS]. Learnt Dutch after moving there.
[00:45:22] Comments on gay scene in Amsterdam – not as good as London. Amsterdam much smaller than London, especially for ex-pats. Comments on being ‘out’ at work from London onwards. Remarks that repeatedly having to come out – at new jobs, etc - is ‘boring’. Works for law firm in Bristol – different experience to come out there (conservative atmosphere), but easier to come out when have a girlfriend – just mention her name as ‘girlfriend’. Has never had a bad reaction to her sexuality to her face, doesn’t care about ‘behind her back’ reactions.
[00:49:56] Lived in Amsterdam 2001-2007, then moved back to London for 1 year (during recession), KR made redundant, Claire lost job (business was shut down). Had visited Bristol previously – liked it. Claire applied for job in Bristol, got short contract work. Kept 2 flats for a while – one in London, one in Bristol, eventually moved to Bristol fully in 2009. KR not involved in Bristol gay scene – going out is boring, ‘same-y’. Occasionally goes out in London, but in Bristol goes for quiet drink in non-gay bar. Remarks on hearing disparaging comments about gay people in smaller towns – e.g. Swansea – less so in bigger cities. Current workplace – law firm (editor there) – conservative, people ‘less worldly’. Second Masters degree was in Gender, Culture and Society. Unsure as to whether Bristol is more or less homophobic than anywhere else. KR has never experienced homophobia in Bristol, but Claire has heard negative comments on talkback radio in Bristol. Comments on Bristol Pride. First Pride was London Pride 1990 – very political – shortly after Section 28, Thatcher years. London Pride march ‘massively important’ before it became commercialised. Mid to late 1990s – began to charge for it - became less important. Amsterdam Pride not very political. Bristol Pride ‘just like a show of hands’.
[01:00:10] Comments on involvement with OutStories Bristol, importance of collecting gay oral histories, way to be involved in the LGBT community. Comments on her own lesbian ‘identity’ – still important – in top 2 of personal identifiers. Remarks on gay marriage – ‘don’t care’ about it. Just political ploy on part of the Conservative government. Equal rights important generally though. KR has been with Claire for 16 years but don’t have civil partnership – will do, but for practical reasons – tax, inheritance – not for romantic reasons.
QUOTES:
[00:06:17] (About coming out to self in mid 1980s) “even though you had the growth of AIDS and that led to a lot of homophobia and really horrible stuff in the media, also at the same time there was quite a lot of stuff… androgynous popstars, and gender and stuff didn’t seem to be quite so polarised so in a way it seemed quite easy to be not a girly girl, and I wonder if that’s the case now.”
[00:11:07] (About different levels of coming out/living multiple lives) “I was going to say I lived a double life, but I actually think I lived a triple life. I didn’t talk about it at home; there were a couple of people at school, they were female friends and they were fine about stuff, so they knew that I was; and then I had other friends who lived nearby or who I knew from around – that was my third life and that was quite gay. I started going to gay clubs when I was about 15 I think, to gay clubs. So there was this whole other world that I lived in – at school I was a model pupil. At home I was, I don’t know what I was, I wasn’t a model daughter, I wasn’t a particularly troublesome one either, and then I had this separate gay life where I’d go to gay clubs and mix with all sorts of odd characters. So it was a triple life, definitely.”
V09_Renfrew.wav [01:05:34] [27 August 2012] Kim Renfrew [KR], born 1 Nov 1969, Swansea, Wales. Brief description of Swansea, Wales. Mentions living near natural beauty spot Gower. Description of family of origin – older sister, father, mother (now deceased). Comments on father’s work and associated absences from the home, parent’s separation (when KR was 11 or 12) and reconciliation (when KR was 16). Comments on stability provided by family house – KR was born in the front room of the house, and house remained in the family until 2011. Comments on not taking family holidays – 1970s, working class, visit nearby beauty spot instead. Describes parents’ separation and reconciliation. Mentions father’s job as marine engineer on ships. Mentions mother working intermittently – toy car factory, administrative work. Comments on household being unusual in retrospect, but didn’t seem it at the time. Mother died when KR was 23.
[00:03:51] Discusses childhood realisations of her own gender expression and sexuality – tomboy, male friends, played with action men and toy guns. In primary school, expectation that she would get married ‘because that’s what girls do’. Teenager – realised same-sex attraction – popstars first, then ‘real girls’. Discusses lack of label for sexuality as an early teenager. Mentions now identifies as lesbian. Comments on finding labels for her sexuality around age 14 or 15. [00:05:50] Describes knowing a lot of gay people, creative, drama, musical people at that time (early to mid 1980s). Comments on growth of AIDS and homophobia in the media at that time, yet also presence of androgynous popstars, gender less polarised, easier to not be ‘girly’. Comments on having more gay male friends than lesbian friends at that time. [00:06:58] Comments on coming out to a close male friend. No bad reactions amongst peers. Describes mother’s reaction to KR’s coming out as a teenager and young adult – difficult, never reconciled. Describes relationship with father – never came out to him, but ‘he knows’ and likes KR’s current girlfriend and accepts her as family. Parents atheist and otherwise liberal, just not about homosexuality.
[00:10:15] Describes Swansea – city, working class, but also universities. KR lived ‘a triple life’ – home (homosexuality not accepted), school (some friends knew) and broader social (‘quite gay’). Began going to gay clubs aged 15 (mid 1980s). Lived ‘triple life’ for 3 or 4 years. 4 or 5 gay clubs in Swansea at the time – most mixed, although some separate women’s venues that KR didn’t go to. Describes Jingles (gay nightclub), having rocks thrown at her on way into club, security at club – sign members book, grill on door. Concealing identity at the club, concerns about being seen going there. [00:16:01] Police – not hostile, but not sympathetic either. Mentions being hit by another lesbian patron at Jingles for drinking her beer. Difficulties in meeting women to date – not like in the lesbian pulp fiction novels (e.g. Desert Hearts) – no revelatory moment in the clubs. First girlfriend when KR was 18 (still at school), with 21 year old woman.
[00:19:51] Finished school 1988, went to Oxford University, split up with girlfriend. Lived in an Oxford College – ‘eye opener’. Students didn’t mix with the town people. Mentions joining university gay society. First experience of gay organisations – lot of campaigning, arguing, discos. About 50 members of university gay society (GaySoc), out of 12,000 students. Started dating a girl who was from Swansea. [00:23:22] Oxford gay society campaigns - HIV/AIDS, OutRage, Peter Tatchill organisation, ACT UP. Went to talk by New York ACT UP campaigner. Separate women’s group – held women-only tea parties, distributed dental dams – KR and her friends not comfortable with women-only events. Comments on women being involved with gay men’s issues (e.g. HIV/AIDS), but gay men not getting involved with women’s issues. Comments on misogyny in gay scene.
[00:26:43] At Oxford for 3 years, graduated in recession – no jobs, so moved back to Swansea with parents (1991), worked in a university bookshop for 2 years – back in the closet at home and work – ‘a miserable time’. Summer 1993, KR’s mother died, and KR went to do Masters degree in Linguistics at Essex University. Comments on struggles with isolation during bereavement. Joined Essex University GaySoc – comments on factional disputes, trivial arguments – KR irritated by it - ‘more a doer’. Essex Gay Society included both students and people from the town (Colchester) – very different to Oxford Gay Society. Describes Colchester – market town, university, garrison – odd mix of people. Monthly Gay Soc bus trip to gay pub/disco at Fox and Hounds in small village in Essex countryside. Had a girlfriend in Essex for a year until moving to London.
[00:34:04] 1995 – KR moved to London – that was revelatory moment ‘like in the books’. Describes living in London - mentions Britpop, lots of queer publications, new clubs, exciting time to be lesbian or gay. Mostly mixed clubs – ‘Ducky’, ‘Popstars’,‘Trade’ (druggie club). KR hasn’t had many lesbian friends, so mixed clubs better. Heavy nightclubbing for 2 years. Job writing computer manuals. Met current girlfriend (Clare) at end of 1996 – stopped clubbing as much. Comments on difference between gay male sexual behaviour and lesbian sexual behaviour. 2001 – moved to Amsterdam with girlfriend. Comments on maintaining her friends despite not clubbing any more. Had more parties at home rather than clubs. Current girlfriend, Claire, was first girlfriend to meet KR’s father.
[00:41:35] 2001 - both KR and girlfriend dissatisfied with their London jobs, needed change. KR does second Masters degree at Birkbeck College (University of London). Claire got job in journalism in Amsterdam, prompting the move. Begins freelance journalism work. Lived in Amsterdam for nearly seven years. [00:44:25 – NOISE FROM RINGS CLICKING – KR REMOVES RINGS]. Learnt Dutch after moving there.
[00:45:22] Comments on gay scene in Amsterdam – not as good as London. Amsterdam much smaller than London, especially for ex-pats. Comments on being ‘out’ at work from London onwards. Remarks that repeatedly having to come out – at new jobs, etc - is ‘boring’. Works for law firm in Bristol – different experience to come out there (conservative atmosphere), but easier to come out when have a girlfriend – just mention her name as ‘girlfriend’. Has never had a bad reaction to her sexuality to her face, doesn’t care about ‘behind her back’ reactions.
[00:49:56] Lived in Amsterdam 2001-2007, then moved back to London for 1 year (during recession), KR made redundant, Claire lost job (business was shut down). Had visited Bristol previously – liked it. Claire applied for job in Bristol, got short contract work. Kept 2 flats for a while – one in London, one in Bristol, eventually moved to Bristol fully in 2009. KR not involved in Bristol gay scene – going out is boring, ‘same-y’. Occasionally goes out in London, but in Bristol goes for quiet drink in non-gay bar. Remarks on hearing disparaging comments about gay people in smaller towns – e.g. Swansea – less so in bigger cities. Current workplace – law firm (editor there) – conservative, people ‘less worldly’. Second Masters degree was in Gender, Culture and Society. Unsure as to whether Bristol is more or less homophobic than anywhere else. KR has never experienced homophobia in Bristol, but Claire has heard negative comments on talkback radio in Bristol. Comments on Bristol Pride. First Pride was London Pride 1990 – very political – shortly after Section 28, Thatcher years. London Pride march ‘massively important’ before it became commercialised. Mid to late 1990s – began to charge for it - became less important. Amsterdam Pride not very political. Bristol Pride ‘just like a show of hands’.
[01:00:10] Comments on involvement with OutStories Bristol, importance of collecting gay oral histories, way to be involved in the LGBT community. Comments on her own lesbian ‘identity’ – still important – in top 2 of personal identifiers. Remarks on gay marriage – ‘don’t care’ about it. Just political ploy on part of the Conservative government. Equal rights important generally though. KR has been with Claire for 16 years but don’t have civil partnership – will do, but for practical reasons – tax, inheritance – not for romantic reasons.
QUOTES:
[00:06:17] (About coming out to self in mid 1980s) “even though you had the growth of AIDS and that led to a lot of homophobia and really horrible stuff in the media, also at the same time there was quite a lot of stuff… androgynous popstars, and gender and stuff didn’t seem to be quite so polarised so in a way it seemed quite easy to be not a girly girl, and I wonder if that’s the case now.”
[00:11:07] (About different levels of coming out/living multiple lives) “I was going to say I lived a double life, but I actually think I lived a triple life. I didn’t talk about it at home; there were a couple of people at school, they were female friends and they were fine about stuff, so they knew that I was; and then I had other friends who lived nearby or who I knew from around – that was my third life and that was quite gay. I started going to gay clubs when I was about 15 I think, to gay clubs. So there was this whole other world that I lived in – at school I was a model pupil. At home I was, I don’t know what I was, I wasn’t a model daughter, I wasn’t a particularly troublesome one either, and then I had this separate gay life where I’d go to gay clubs and mix with all sorts of odd characters. So it was a triple life, definitely.”
