}
OH435 Interview with Chris Leigh (OutStories Bristol)
Please note this is not a full complete transcript but a detailed summary of the recording
Chris Leigh (CL) quick biography. Born 1949 in Leigh on Sea, Essex. Joined RAF aged16. Comments he didn't fit as RAF was an organisation where you had to conform. Acknowledged gay at age 21 but refused to accept it. Started exploring gay scene at age 23 in Oxford pubs and clubs [1972/1973]. [00:02:52] First gay club in Oxford was above the Theatre bar and complete eye opener. Very timid at that time. [00:03:23] Worked through being gay at an intellectual level as opposed to going out and doing anything. [00:03:44] Aged 24 was under investigation by the Military Police. Politics very left wing and a questioning attitude. During investigation discovered CL was gay and had a brief relationship with a colleague. [00:04:19] Court Martialled and thrown out of RAF at age 25,1975. Parents very supportive. They lived in Cornwall so didn't want to go there to live. [00:05:36] Got job in Watford but laid off at Christmas. [00:06:40] First time in Bristol - got a nice vibe in Bristol. Fell in love with city, nice place, nice people. [00:07:39] Felt that this was home for first time in his life. [00:07:49] One of first people he met was Charlie Beaton who had also recently arrived in Bristol and have been friends ever since. Went to CHE [Campaign for Homosexual Equality] group. Had become moribund but became involved, with others, to revitalise it. [00:08:55] Short lived life in Bristol as career had stalled so had to move to Derby to work for Rolls Royce. Disliked Derby and its people. [00:09:32] One year later back in Bristol [June 1977] like coming home. Got involved with CHE again. [00:10:18] Took backroom role as was never confident to be in the front role. [00:11:00] Involved in setting up Gay Centre in Bristol [1979/1980]. [00:11:15] Mid 1980s became involved in setting up The Gay Men's Health Network which became the Aled Richards Trust which is now part of the Terence Higgins Trust.
[00:12:20] Taken back to questions re childhood. [00:12:27] Very happy at Primary School but unhappy at Secondary School. Small and slight and hated competitive sports. Didn't feel confident and felt intimidated by boys and masters. Retreated into himself. [00:14:27] Had lots of sex, mutual masturbation, starting around aged 10. Joked he had more sex then than ever had subsequently. But only playing around, no intimacy. [00:15:28] Felt that all this was a passing phase. Would get married and have children. Wasn't like Larry Grayson [entertainer on TV] or a dirty old man in a raincoat which was how he perceived being queer. [00:16:48] From aged 16 to around aged 23 had no sexual contact at all with anyone. Didn't allow himself to feel and just suppressed everything. But did fancy other guys in the RAF. Aware of it but didn't allow to register at a conscious level, operating as 2 different people. Still believed it was a passing phase. [00:18:50] Questioned about not enjoying being in the RAF. [00:19:09] The 1960s counter culture, questioning authority, questioning everything. First mention of his personal Pandora's Box. [00:20:20] Doing job well and enjoyed that. Spent whole of RAF career around Oxfordshire. Worked on VC10 and the Shorts Belfast, great lumbering transport plane only operated by RAF. On the surface doing well. [00:22:10] Colleague wanted to leave to be social worker. CL expressed support and criticised RAF for not letting him go. Trying to buy himself out. Finally went Absent Without Leave (AWOL) and was kicked out. CL politics becoming more radicalised. [00:24:05] 3 day week in 1973, CL supported miners and wondered how he would handle situation if had to go and support the police opposing the picket lines which was a possibility for all service personnel. [00:25:19] Aged 21 [1970] an incident occurred when work colleague physically made a pass at CL. Fumbling around and happened once only. Pandora's Box lid had been lifted again. Year later chatting at a social event colleague had moved on but another colleague told him he had had a nervous breakdown and been invalided out shortly after the incident happened. Felt like someone had stabbed him – hadn't seen anything wrong. CL didn't blame himself but actually felt this could be him. [00:30:08] Pandora's Box was now open and couldn't sit on it any longer. Acknowledged was gay couple of years earlier but didn't want to do anything about it.
[00:30:37] Very vulnerable in RAF. [00:30:45] Felt that military were more anti gay then than at any other time. Military terrified about changes happening in Britain. Fall out from Vietnam War etc. [00:33:00] Colleagues thought him strange going off by himself. Thought had a girlfriend but others he subsequently found wondered if he was gay. [00:34:29] Went to pub to go to a disco which was a local Irish pub, sat for an hour and decided the wrong place but went out different door and realised had been in wrong part of building. Bottled out and didn't go up to the disco. Following week went back and remembers upright piano with fading flowers on it which he hid behind and just watched everyone else – so first memory of being gay sitting behind a piano watching the world through wilting daffodils, approx 1973/1974. [37:30] Military Police began an inquiry into him because of his inquiring attitude and politics. Picked up for questioning and his room searched. Found some copies of Gay News [first gay paper in UK]. Pointless denying he was gay so didn't try. [00:38:22] Led to witch hunt through all his friends and colleagues lives, all picked up and whisked away for questioning about their lives, really terrible, terrifying time for CL. [00:39:00] CL taken away and questioned for about 3 or 4 days then taken to another station to keep him out of contact with anyone else. Unable to describe his feelings, too difficult. [00:40:18] CL’s sexual orientation was found out [by RAF] - had sex with a very close friend and colleague. Used to go to rock concerts together. He was “a bit bi”. Charged with underage sex under military and civil law as friend was 19/20 years old at the time. [Men had to be 21 at that time]. Thrown into prison for 4 weeks and dishonourably discharged [1975]. [00:43:30] Papers clipped at corner which showed had been dishonourably discharged. Upfront with employers at interviews who saw papers and knew what this meant.
[00:43:50] Came back to Bristol and was totally upfront with employers and worked for Bristol Technical Publications, morphed into a Technical Writer from an engineer [June 1977]. [00:45:59] This was the point at which his life came together. Loved everything about Bristol. Made nice and enduring friends. [00:47:00] Being kicked out of RAF was great watershed of CL's life. Like the before and after. [00:47:40] Thinking about himself at ages 16 to 23 like looking at another person and one he doesn't understand. [00:48:18] Day he got his papers from the RAF and walked out of gate for the last time felt totally liberated and on top of the world. Felt he could actively create his future. [00:49:57] Parents supportive and hadn't realised what a great ally his father could be. [00:50:51] Father's response when told parents he was gay told him not to do something silly like getting married. Very perceptive. But couldn't talk to them about his feelings. Never knew what his mother really felt about him being gay although very happy with him. [00:52:45] CHE Bristol – got involved. Writing to council and meeting William Waldegrave local MP [Tory] who was a reformist. [00:54:20] Never met people or friends at clubs and pubs but at social groups. Went to nightclubs, ‘Oasis’ and ’49 [Steps]’ as enjoyed dancing and the overt sexuality. [00:55:47] Gay Centre set up 1979/1980 by people not involved in Gay Scene, but involved in the Gay Movement. Idea was to create a social space that was non-scene, welcoming and open to everybody, meeting place for gay groups, transvestite group met weekly and gave Gay Switchboard a proper home. Four rooms on top floor of a warehouse called Macarthur's Building in Gasferry Road approx 100 yards from where SS Great Britain is now located. Dreadful location, no money, no grants and model created wasn't economically viable. Hand to mouth existence run by volunteers. [00:59:25] Wide age group range who came there. Stepping stone for people who found the scene too intimidating. Environment where you could chat without being chatted up. Safe and tolerant. [01:01:50] What killed it was the location and air of decay about the building. Run by a democratically elected committee of 8 or 10 people. [01:03:50] Monthly discos attracting 60 plus people.[01:04:30] Finally closed due to lack of funding and organisers tired.[01:06:00] Very proud of it as it provided a social, alternative space for groups. Benefits also to members of the group and learning how to work with other people and set up an organisation.
[01:08:57] Had some significant relationships for approx a year or 18 months through both Gay Centre and Oasis [nightclub]. Never settled down into coupledom. Happy by himself and his own life. Independent. Companionship and friendship is more important. Never needed anything more than that. Doesn't have to worry about anything else.[01:12:45] End of Gay Centre. Had a break for a while from political/social activism for practical reason - doing up a house. Moved to Clifton Wood and entertained Gay West events once a year. Didn't get involved running Gay West as was much more social than political.[01:16:51] Charlie Beaton got in contact 1985/1986 because worried about political fallout around AIDS/HIV and wanted to set up an organisation to combat this. History of AIDS/HIV. [01:17:31] Gay Men's Health Network first set up to counter anti-gay press and media coverage and hysteria. Theory initially AIDS caused by poppers [amyl-nitrate]. [01:18:44] Became known as the Gay Plague. Unaware that anyone in Bristol had AIDS. [01:20:47] Question what Gay Men's Health Network (GMHN) actually did. Initially sat round trying to canvas support and trying to work out what to do. Within 3 months, 2 women got in touch and got involved. [01:21:13] One was Jill Brown, very inspirational – who was a real people person. Second was Jenny Bellis, middle aged heterosexual woman. Jenny horrified by attitudes in press so came along and became a fundraiser. They (Jill Brown and Jenny Bellis) were real driving forces and brought in a much broader outlook. Made them realise there was much bigger issue. [01:23:51] Became aware of first HIV/AIDS cases in Bristol. [01:24:18] Around this time first gay man died of AIDS in Bristol (Aled Richards). Contacted his family to ask if they could use his name [copying Terence Higgins Trust in London] and so GMNH became the Aled Richards Trust (ART). [01:24:59] Looking around for grants and discovered local health authority didn't know how to deal with gay men in pubs and clubs. [01:26:06] Government came up with collapsing iceberg advert which frightened “Mr & Mrs Norm” and didn't get through to gay men apart from terrifying them. Health Authorities /doctors didn't know how to communicate with gay men and how to talk about sex and what men did with their willies. ART provided a way of bridging gulf between authorities and gay men and provided leaflets that gay men could understand and in their language and feel comfortable with - talking bluntly.
[01:28:15] Got first office just off the Centre in Bristol up a side street by the Hippodrome [theatre] called Mark Lane. Talking to local health authority and got funding of £15,000. Huge amount of money. [01:30:40] Interviewing panel set up to employ a salaried co-ordinator. 4 people interviewed but position given to Jill Brown, the insider, she provided leadership and focus- definitely the right choice. [01:31:00] CL stayed involved for 3 or 4 years but dropped out as needed more time to himself and also wanted a break from it all. Found it was demanding. [01:33:00] Very proud of what was created. Didn't get involved in anything else for a long time, no campaigning. Burnt itself out. [01:34:16] By 1990s to 2000s everything on campaigning had become a lot more professional, particularly Stonewall [campaigning organisation/pressure group for gay rights]. [01:35:35] Gratifying that now parliament/local authorities look to Stonewall to be brought in to campaigning process. [01:36:40] Decided he had “done his time” and handed campaigning baton on to a different generation. [01:38:20] Why become involved with Outstories? – decided wanted to get involved again - thought in terms of people older than him being interviewed. Realising the need to get the stories. Wanted to do something. And has realised it is so rewarding even though in a background role and derives a lot of satisfaction from that. [01:42:10] Involved with inner core putting on the exhibition at M Shed in 2013. Loves working with people who have the vision and CL can pick up the tools and help them implement it. [01:43:10] Has initially created the website and providing the IT resource the group needs. Acknowledged that the way to communicate today is through a website. Didn't have the skills or knowledge but just went on and created it by learning himself and through the DIY route. [01:46:05] Doing this realised it had been about ten years since he had learnt a new skill. Feels quietly proud about the achievement – all done on a shoestring. [01:48:03] Hoping to get some sound bites from the audio clips to add into the website. [01:48:47] Strange feeling talking about his past. Feels as if he's talking about another person at that time. Does not want to be seen as an ex-RAF guy. Left that past behind. At the moment he left the RAF felt like a born again Christian - turned over a new leaf and looked forward to his new life. [01:51:23] Feels has been blessed with a very fortunate life. Yet the difficulty in the RAF was the making of him. END [01:52:35]
See also OH949
QUOTES:
[00:06:40] First time in Bristol I loved the city and the people and the vibe of the place. [00:15:28] I wasn't like Larry Grayson (a camp TV personality) or a dirty old man in a raincoat.[His impressions of what gay men were like] [00:25:19] Compared his life to ‘Pandora's box’ (see Greek mythology) where the lid was occasionally lifted to let out his sexuality but then got firmly shut again. [00:48:18] Walked out of the gate having been discharged from the RAF and felt totally liberated and on top of the world and could actively create his own future. [00:50:51] Dad's response to telling him he was gay “Don't do something silly like getting married”. [01:33:00] Talking of Aled Richards Trust “I am so proud of what we created”
Chris Leigh (CL) quick biography. Born 1949 in Leigh on Sea, Essex. Joined RAF aged16. Comments he didn't fit as RAF was an organisation where you had to conform. Acknowledged gay at age 21 but refused to accept it. Started exploring gay scene at age 23 in Oxford pubs and clubs [1972/1973]. [00:02:52] First gay club in Oxford was above the Theatre bar and complete eye opener. Very timid at that time. [00:03:23] Worked through being gay at an intellectual level as opposed to going out and doing anything. [00:03:44] Aged 24 was under investigation by the Military Police. Politics very left wing and a questioning attitude. During investigation discovered CL was gay and had a brief relationship with a colleague. [00:04:19] Court Martialled and thrown out of RAF at age 25,1975. Parents very supportive. They lived in Cornwall so didn't want to go there to live. [00:05:36] Got job in Watford but laid off at Christmas. [00:06:40] First time in Bristol - got a nice vibe in Bristol. Fell in love with city, nice place, nice people. [00:07:39] Felt that this was home for first time in his life. [00:07:49] One of first people he met was Charlie Beaton who had also recently arrived in Bristol and have been friends ever since. Went to CHE [Campaign for Homosexual Equality] group. Had become moribund but became involved, with others, to revitalise it. [00:08:55] Short lived life in Bristol as career had stalled so had to move to Derby to work for Rolls Royce. Disliked Derby and its people. [00:09:32] One year later back in Bristol [June 1977] like coming home. Got involved with CHE again. [00:10:18] Took backroom role as was never confident to be in the front role. [00:11:00] Involved in setting up Gay Centre in Bristol [1979/1980]. [00:11:15] Mid 1980s became involved in setting up The Gay Men's Health Network which became the Aled Richards Trust which is now part of the Terence Higgins Trust.
[00:12:20] Taken back to questions re childhood. [00:12:27] Very happy at Primary School but unhappy at Secondary School. Small and slight and hated competitive sports. Didn't feel confident and felt intimidated by boys and masters. Retreated into himself. [00:14:27] Had lots of sex, mutual masturbation, starting around aged 10. Joked he had more sex then than ever had subsequently. But only playing around, no intimacy. [00:15:28] Felt that all this was a passing phase. Would get married and have children. Wasn't like Larry Grayson [entertainer on TV] or a dirty old man in a raincoat which was how he perceived being queer. [00:16:48] From aged 16 to around aged 23 had no sexual contact at all with anyone. Didn't allow himself to feel and just suppressed everything. But did fancy other guys in the RAF. Aware of it but didn't allow to register at a conscious level, operating as 2 different people. Still believed it was a passing phase. [00:18:50] Questioned about not enjoying being in the RAF. [00:19:09] The 1960s counter culture, questioning authority, questioning everything. First mention of his personal Pandora's Box. [00:20:20] Doing job well and enjoyed that. Spent whole of RAF career around Oxfordshire. Worked on VC10 and the Shorts Belfast, great lumbering transport plane only operated by RAF. On the surface doing well. [00:22:10] Colleague wanted to leave to be social worker. CL expressed support and criticised RAF for not letting him go. Trying to buy himself out. Finally went Absent Without Leave (AWOL) and was kicked out. CL politics becoming more radicalised. [00:24:05] 3 day week in 1973, CL supported miners and wondered how he would handle situation if had to go and support the police opposing the picket lines which was a possibility for all service personnel. [00:25:19] Aged 21 [1970] an incident occurred when work colleague physically made a pass at CL. Fumbling around and happened once only. Pandora's Box lid had been lifted again. Year later chatting at a social event colleague had moved on but another colleague told him he had had a nervous breakdown and been invalided out shortly after the incident happened. Felt like someone had stabbed him – hadn't seen anything wrong. CL didn't blame himself but actually felt this could be him. [00:30:08] Pandora's Box was now open and couldn't sit on it any longer. Acknowledged was gay couple of years earlier but didn't want to do anything about it.
[00:30:37] Very vulnerable in RAF. [00:30:45] Felt that military were more anti gay then than at any other time. Military terrified about changes happening in Britain. Fall out from Vietnam War etc. [00:33:00] Colleagues thought him strange going off by himself. Thought had a girlfriend but others he subsequently found wondered if he was gay. [00:34:29] Went to pub to go to a disco which was a local Irish pub, sat for an hour and decided the wrong place but went out different door and realised had been in wrong part of building. Bottled out and didn't go up to the disco. Following week went back and remembers upright piano with fading flowers on it which he hid behind and just watched everyone else – so first memory of being gay sitting behind a piano watching the world through wilting daffodils, approx 1973/1974. [37:30] Military Police began an inquiry into him because of his inquiring attitude and politics. Picked up for questioning and his room searched. Found some copies of Gay News [first gay paper in UK]. Pointless denying he was gay so didn't try. [00:38:22] Led to witch hunt through all his friends and colleagues lives, all picked up and whisked away for questioning about their lives, really terrible, terrifying time for CL. [00:39:00] CL taken away and questioned for about 3 or 4 days then taken to another station to keep him out of contact with anyone else. Unable to describe his feelings, too difficult. [00:40:18] CL’s sexual orientation was found out [by RAF] - had sex with a very close friend and colleague. Used to go to rock concerts together. He was “a bit bi”. Charged with underage sex under military and civil law as friend was 19/20 years old at the time. [Men had to be 21 at that time]. Thrown into prison for 4 weeks and dishonourably discharged [1975]. [00:43:30] Papers clipped at corner which showed had been dishonourably discharged. Upfront with employers at interviews who saw papers and knew what this meant.
[00:43:50] Came back to Bristol and was totally upfront with employers and worked for Bristol Technical Publications, morphed into a Technical Writer from an engineer [June 1977]. [00:45:59] This was the point at which his life came together. Loved everything about Bristol. Made nice and enduring friends. [00:47:00] Being kicked out of RAF was great watershed of CL's life. Like the before and after. [00:47:40] Thinking about himself at ages 16 to 23 like looking at another person and one he doesn't understand. [00:48:18] Day he got his papers from the RAF and walked out of gate for the last time felt totally liberated and on top of the world. Felt he could actively create his future. [00:49:57] Parents supportive and hadn't realised what a great ally his father could be. [00:50:51] Father's response when told parents he was gay told him not to do something silly like getting married. Very perceptive. But couldn't talk to them about his feelings. Never knew what his mother really felt about him being gay although very happy with him. [00:52:45] CHE Bristol – got involved. Writing to council and meeting William Waldegrave local MP [Tory] who was a reformist. [00:54:20] Never met people or friends at clubs and pubs but at social groups. Went to nightclubs, ‘Oasis’ and ’49 [Steps]’ as enjoyed dancing and the overt sexuality. [00:55:47] Gay Centre set up 1979/1980 by people not involved in Gay Scene, but involved in the Gay Movement. Idea was to create a social space that was non-scene, welcoming and open to everybody, meeting place for gay groups, transvestite group met weekly and gave Gay Switchboard a proper home. Four rooms on top floor of a warehouse called Macarthur's Building in Gasferry Road approx 100 yards from where SS Great Britain is now located. Dreadful location, no money, no grants and model created wasn't economically viable. Hand to mouth existence run by volunteers. [00:59:25] Wide age group range who came there. Stepping stone for people who found the scene too intimidating. Environment where you could chat without being chatted up. Safe and tolerant. [01:01:50] What killed it was the location and air of decay about the building. Run by a democratically elected committee of 8 or 10 people. [01:03:50] Monthly discos attracting 60 plus people.[01:04:30] Finally closed due to lack of funding and organisers tired.[01:06:00] Very proud of it as it provided a social, alternative space for groups. Benefits also to members of the group and learning how to work with other people and set up an organisation.
[01:08:57] Had some significant relationships for approx a year or 18 months through both Gay Centre and Oasis [nightclub]. Never settled down into coupledom. Happy by himself and his own life. Independent. Companionship and friendship is more important. Never needed anything more than that. Doesn't have to worry about anything else.[01:12:45] End of Gay Centre. Had a break for a while from political/social activism for practical reason - doing up a house. Moved to Clifton Wood and entertained Gay West events once a year. Didn't get involved running Gay West as was much more social than political.[01:16:51] Charlie Beaton got in contact 1985/1986 because worried about political fallout around AIDS/HIV and wanted to set up an organisation to combat this. History of AIDS/HIV. [01:17:31] Gay Men's Health Network first set up to counter anti-gay press and media coverage and hysteria. Theory initially AIDS caused by poppers [amyl-nitrate]. [01:18:44] Became known as the Gay Plague. Unaware that anyone in Bristol had AIDS. [01:20:47] Question what Gay Men's Health Network (GMHN) actually did. Initially sat round trying to canvas support and trying to work out what to do. Within 3 months, 2 women got in touch and got involved. [01:21:13] One was Jill Brown, very inspirational – who was a real people person. Second was Jenny Bellis, middle aged heterosexual woman. Jenny horrified by attitudes in press so came along and became a fundraiser. They (Jill Brown and Jenny Bellis) were real driving forces and brought in a much broader outlook. Made them realise there was much bigger issue. [01:23:51] Became aware of first HIV/AIDS cases in Bristol. [01:24:18] Around this time first gay man died of AIDS in Bristol (Aled Richards). Contacted his family to ask if they could use his name [copying Terence Higgins Trust in London] and so GMNH became the Aled Richards Trust (ART). [01:24:59] Looking around for grants and discovered local health authority didn't know how to deal with gay men in pubs and clubs. [01:26:06] Government came up with collapsing iceberg advert which frightened “Mr & Mrs Norm” and didn't get through to gay men apart from terrifying them. Health Authorities /doctors didn't know how to communicate with gay men and how to talk about sex and what men did with their willies. ART provided a way of bridging gulf between authorities and gay men and provided leaflets that gay men could understand and in their language and feel comfortable with - talking bluntly.
[01:28:15] Got first office just off the Centre in Bristol up a side street by the Hippodrome [theatre] called Mark Lane. Talking to local health authority and got funding of £15,000. Huge amount of money. [01:30:40] Interviewing panel set up to employ a salaried co-ordinator. 4 people interviewed but position given to Jill Brown, the insider, she provided leadership and focus- definitely the right choice. [01:31:00] CL stayed involved for 3 or 4 years but dropped out as needed more time to himself and also wanted a break from it all. Found it was demanding. [01:33:00] Very proud of what was created. Didn't get involved in anything else for a long time, no campaigning. Burnt itself out. [01:34:16] By 1990s to 2000s everything on campaigning had become a lot more professional, particularly Stonewall [campaigning organisation/pressure group for gay rights]. [01:35:35] Gratifying that now parliament/local authorities look to Stonewall to be brought in to campaigning process. [01:36:40] Decided he had “done his time” and handed campaigning baton on to a different generation. [01:38:20] Why become involved with Outstories? – decided wanted to get involved again - thought in terms of people older than him being interviewed. Realising the need to get the stories. Wanted to do something. And has realised it is so rewarding even though in a background role and derives a lot of satisfaction from that. [01:42:10] Involved with inner core putting on the exhibition at M Shed in 2013. Loves working with people who have the vision and CL can pick up the tools and help them implement it. [01:43:10] Has initially created the website and providing the IT resource the group needs. Acknowledged that the way to communicate today is through a website. Didn't have the skills or knowledge but just went on and created it by learning himself and through the DIY route. [01:46:05] Doing this realised it had been about ten years since he had learnt a new skill. Feels quietly proud about the achievement – all done on a shoestring. [01:48:03] Hoping to get some sound bites from the audio clips to add into the website. [01:48:47] Strange feeling talking about his past. Feels as if he's talking about another person at that time. Does not want to be seen as an ex-RAF guy. Left that past behind. At the moment he left the RAF felt like a born again Christian - turned over a new leaf and looked forward to his new life. [01:51:23] Feels has been blessed with a very fortunate life. Yet the difficulty in the RAF was the making of him. END [01:52:35]
See also OH949
QUOTES:
[00:06:40] First time in Bristol I loved the city and the people and the vibe of the place. [00:15:28] I wasn't like Larry Grayson (a camp TV personality) or a dirty old man in a raincoat.[His impressions of what gay men were like] [00:25:19] Compared his life to ‘Pandora's box’ (see Greek mythology) where the lid was occasionally lifted to let out his sexuality but then got firmly shut again. [00:48:18] Walked out of the gate having been discharged from the RAF and felt totally liberated and on top of the world and could actively create his own future. [00:50:51] Dad's response to telling him he was gay “Don't do something silly like getting married”. [01:33:00] Talking of Aled Richards Trust “I am so proud of what we created”
